23-09-2004 10:04									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker We kept the Soviets off your back so STFU

Especially considering that both France and England were nuclear powers.

	23-09-2004 10:07									#182
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Of course, it was French deterrence that saved the day.

	23-09-2004 17:40									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Does anyone really believe that Bush is going to bring democracy to places like in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Pakistan.

It is already happening, oh misled one.

	23-09-2004 17:42									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I was ashamed of his speech [Bush's to the UN], how he could go before the entire world and launch a damn campaign speech.

Did you actually listen to the speech as I did? That may have been the best speech ever delivered to the UN.

	23-09-2004 17:46									#185
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Well, that's excactly what USA has been doing (supporting ruthless, mass murdering, raping, torturing DICTATORS) for the last 40 years around the globe. Saddam Hussein is included in those dictators.

Yeah, sure.

Even if it were true in the past, Bush has said that America's future and the hope of mankind lies in "democracy" and freedom for the world's people. In human rights and in women's rights.

Bush is right. It is almost ludicrous that people like Kerry oppose democracy, human rights and women's rights for the sake of petty party politics. He should be ashamed.

	23-09-2004 18:02									#186
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Hey Ned its the Repubs that are the party of oppression crushing civil rights in every form. Betrayers of the party of Lincoln and all that jazz. Didn't you get the DNC talking points?

	23-09-2004 18:35									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kerry oppose democracy

Haven't you heard of the new protest movement DAD?

(Democrats Against Democracy)

	23-09-2004 18:51									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie Haven't you heard of the new protest movement DAD? (Democrats Against Democracy)

Tick Tock
Flip Flop
What time is it?
Time for Kerry to declare
His position du jour

Tick Tock
Flip Flop

	23-09-2004 19:08									#189
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If you think either one of them wants to encourage free democracy in the Middle East you're all off your rockers. The moment there's a free election (i.e. no restrictions on which parties are included), msot of these countries will, on the back of the poor and longtime oppressed, vote in regimes that will share a lot with somewhere like Iran. These democracies will soon turn to theocracies, and bingo, more extremist muslim states.

	23-09-2004 19:09									#190
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Actually Iran is on the verge of turning democratic from theocratic. 75% of the population wants radical change (according to past elections where the reformists overwhelmingly won).

	23-09-2004 19:14									#191
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Meant Iran in the 80's. Now the poor and oppressed realise that a theocracy doesn't hold their interest in hands either, so they're ready for trying something else. I wouldn't want a theocratic Saudi state for 15-20yrs though before they realise it.

	23-09-2004 19:53									#192
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue If you think either one of them wants to encourage free democracy in the Middle East you're all off your rockers. The moment there's a free election (i.e. no restrictions on which parties are included), msot of these countries will, on the back of the poor and longtime oppressed, vote in regimes that will share a lot with somewhere like Iran. These democracies will soon turn to theocracies, and bingo, more extremist muslim states.

Well, that did happen in Iran in 52. But, what happened in '53?

	23-09-2004 19:57									#193
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The key to DEMOCRACY or any form of government is that it has to have the support of enough people or enough people have to not care enough to change the system. What is basically the right of self-determination. An outside party cannot legitimately decide what form of government another country should have.
That is why the Iranians revolted in the 70's and that is why the Iranians are looking to change their form of government without U.S. involvement. Iran is a prime example of the will of the people at work.

	23-09-2004 20:07									#194
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Pax, the Iranian clerics, particularly Ayatollah Khomeni, revolted due to the introduction into Iran of liberal Western culture, including and most importantly, liberalization of women's rights.

	23-09-2004 21:34									#195
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So....My statement is a universal one and has little to do with the cause of revolts. I'm pointing out that in order for a revolt or even an election to be won or lost enough of the right people have to give a damn enough to do something about it and enough of the right people have to be complacent. For evil to triumph good men have to do nothing. This is true for any situation.

	23-09-2004 22:06									#196
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quote: Originally posted by lightblue Meant Iran in the 80's. Now the poor and oppressed realise that a theocracy doesn't hold their interest in hands either, so they're ready for trying something else. I wouldn't want a theocratic Saudi state for 15-20yrs though before they realise it.

Some people need to realize their mistakes the hard way to understand it isn't what is best suited for them. I've seen people stumble over and over again, and after a few times finally realize their errors.

Pax:

quote: That is why the Iranians revolted in the 70's and that is why the Iranians are looking to change their form of government without U.S. involvement. Iran is a prime example of the will of the people at work.

Laughable at best. It has to do with mainly the regular people staying in their houses, and radicals going out seizing power. It had nothing to do with the will of the people... that's the biggest pile of rubbish I ever heard. All I've heard from you is pretty inaccurate of the reality at any rate.

	23-09-2004 23:05									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Laughable at best. It has to do with mainly the regular people staying in their houses, and radicals going out seizing power. It had nothing to do with the will of the people... that's the biggest pile of rubbish I ever heard. All I've heard from you is pretty inaccurate of the reality at any rate.

How is it rubbish when you just rephrased my statement?

	24-09-2004 00:49									#198
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quote: It has to do with mainly the regular people staying in their houses, and radicals going out seizing power. It had nothing to do with the will of the people... that's the biggest pile of rubbish I ever heard.

Do you have any idea what happened in Iran in the '70s, Fez? The Shah was a thug, pure and simple. He was just as bad as Castro and we should have never backed him. The regular Iraqi was sick and tired of living in a police state and, at the very least, the Ayatollah offered a different police state (to be fair, it isn't as oppressive as the Shah's... imagine that) .

	24-09-2004 00:55									#199
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The Shah got into trouble for several reasons: 1. He was an autocrat who created a police state.
2. He was attempting rapid "westernization" in an autocratic manner, and more conservative social forces were resistant.

So he was brought down by a huge popular revolt emcompassing most sectors of society. In the aftermath of the fall of the Shah it turned out the clerics were the most organized and determined, so they came out on top.

	24-09-2004 03:50									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker Of course, it was French deterrence that saved the day.

Of course, given that the USSR never had any intent of attacking Western Europe in the first place... but that's probaby already too much history for you.

Mind you, France did have a nuclear arsenal, and it was quite large. American missiles, though, were manufactured with the words "deterrence" written on them so they were more efficient than the French ones at it.

	24-09-2004 05:01									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Some people need to realize their mistakes the hard way to understand it isn't what is best suited for them. I've seen people stumble over and over again, and after a few times finally realize their errors.

That's the problem though. Do you want a hardline islamist state in Saudi Arabia, with the resources they got? You think we have issues with Islamist terrorism now.. wait till that happens.

	24-09-2004 08:00									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Did you actually listen to the speech as I did? That may have been the best speech ever delivered to the UN.

It was a great, campaign speech. He might as well have said, "make sure to vote for me this fall," at the end of it.

	24-09-2004 10:31									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, that did happen in Iran in 52. But, what happened in '53?

The US supported a monarchist coup against a democratically-elected government IIRC.

	24-09-2004 11:32									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Of course, given that the USSR never had any intent of attacking Western Europe in the first place... but that's probaby already too much history for you.

Maybe we should ignore the Hungarian and Czech experience. That would make the Sovs look more peace loving.

Anyone who thinks the Red Army was kept out of Western Europe by anything other than the threat of the USAF is deluded.

	24-09-2004 17:33									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko The US supported a monarchist coup against a democratically-elected government IIRC.

No, the US backed a Brit coup against a usurper who siezed total power.

	24-09-2004 17:48									#206
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Sorry Ned. Mohammed Mossedegh was democratically elected as Prime Minister not just once, but twice (reelected to the position by the Majlis in 1952). The Brits and US were made that he nationalized the oil industry.

Yes, he was trying to consolidate power in '53, but to call him an 'usurper' is ridiculous.

	24-09-2004 20:13									#207
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Imran, he was twice "elected" by parliament to be prime minister. However, as in the UK, he actually was appointed prime minister by the Shah. The Shah replaced him when he demanded control of the army. There were riots. So the Shah he reappointed him and gave him control of the army. Then Mossadegh dismissed parliament permanently so he could rule by decree. He granted himself all sorts of emergency powers and begain to rule by decree. There was no sense in which this man was not a dictator, especially after he forced the Shah to flee the country and ruled alone.

Democratically elected my ass. Tell the truth you f*cking fascists.

	24-09-2004 20:54									#208
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quote: Democratically elected my ass.

From your post:

quote: he was twice "elected" by parliament to be prime minister

The Majlis voted for Mossedegh twice because of his immense popularity to be the Prime Minister.

Mossedegh only turned to consolidate his power because the CIA and MI6 were clandestinely trying to oust him from power and this is documented. CIA director Allen Dulles approved $1 million to be used in any way to bring about the fall of Mossadegh. Operation Ajax was intended to bring about his fall. They did this BEFORE Mossadegh dismissed parliament!

With all that, can you blame the man for consolidating power and trying to get rid of the Shah for his complicity in the matter.

Before you dismiss this as an anti-American story, it was acknowledged by SecState Albright and the New York Times blew the cover off the the US's involvement in attempting to overthrow a democratic government. It was democratic when Operation Ajax was implimented. Because it turned less so during the operation is immaterial.

Though I do love how you have to resort to insults because you realize your untenous position.

	24-09-2004 20:58									#209
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Why can't we have that CIA again? I want an agency to be that competent.

	24-09-2004 21:17									#210
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quote: Unemployment is over 50 percent. Insurgents are able to find plenty of people willing to take $150 for tossing grenades at passing U.S. convoys.

America must pay 150$ for throwing grenades at terrorists