24-09-2004 21:18									#211
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Our previous actions are the cause for the troubles today. Why would you want that CIA.

	24-09-2004 21:25									#212
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They were competent at what they set out to do.

	24-09-2004 21:27									#213
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The only problem is that what they set out to do goes against the principles the U.S. was founded on. You know self-determination, Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, avoid entangling alliances, and etc.

	24-09-2004 21:29									#214
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Point being?

	24-09-2004 21:31									#215
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Even if the devil is good at his job it's still not a good idea to hire him.

	24-09-2004 22:32									#216
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Maybe we should ignore the Hungarian and Czech experience. That would make the Sovs look more peace loving.

That was domestic policy. And Czechoslovakia is a Central European country; Hungary is an Eastern European one.

quote: Anyone who thinks the Red Army was kept out of Western Europe by anything other than the threat of the USAF is deluded.

Again, tell me what's more deterrent about American missiles than French or British ones?

	24-09-2004 22:46									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Again, tell me what's more deterrent about American missiles than French or British ones?

Quantity

	24-09-2004 23:03									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Democratically elected my ass. From your post: quote: he was twice "elected" by parliament to be prime minister The Majlis voted for Mossedegh twice because of his immense popularity to be the Prime Minister. Mossedegh only turned to consolidate his power because the CIA and MI6 were clandestinely trying to oust him from power and this is documented. CIA director Allen Dulles approved $1 million to be used in any way to bring about the fall of Mossadegh. Operation Ajax was intended to bring about his fall. They did this BEFORE Mossadegh dismissed parliament! With all that, can you blame the man for consolidating power and trying to get rid of the Shah for his complicity in the matter. Before you dismiss this as an anti-American story, it was acknowledged by SecState Albright and the New York Times blew the cover off the the US's involvement in attempting to overthrow a democratic government. It was democratic when Operation Ajax was implimented. Because it turned less so during the operation is immaterial. Though I do love how you have to resort to insults because you realize your untenous position.

The "plot" was to have the Shah fire him, which was his legal right. Instead he forced the Shah to flee.

You still do not acknowledge that he dismissed parliament and assumed all power. Such a person is a usurper.

Madam Albright is woefully misnamed.

On edit: This guy was on some sort of socialist warpath far earlier than any Brit plot. He nationalized the oil industry without offering to pay, he seized control of the army, he stripped landlords of their property and formed collective farms, he dismissed parliament. This man was a "democrat"? Come to think of it, he was a Democrat!!

	25-09-2004 00:05									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Quantity

Indeed, quantity. So the Soviets would have attacked if they knew it meant a 400 or so missiles counterstrike instead of a a 2,000 one?

	25-09-2004 00:21									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Indeed, quantity. So the Soviets would have attacked if they knew it meant a 400 or so missiles counterstrike instead of a a 2,000 one?

Pretty much so, yes.

Damn Reds.

	25-09-2004 01:21									#221
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quote: Even if the devil is good at his job it's still not a good idea to hire him.

Touche

quote: You still do not acknowledge that he dismissed parliament and assumed all power. Such a person is a usurper.

AFTER the CIA and MI6 moved in and tried to knock him out from power. So we moved against a democratically elected government. We didn't move after he dismissed the Majlis, did we? In fact that's partially the reason he did dismiss it. Foriegn intelligence agencies trying to overthrow the government counts as suitable for 'emergency powers'.

quote: This guy was on some sort of socialist warpath far earlier than any Brit plot. He nationalized the oil industry without offering to pay, he seized control of the army, he stripped landlords of their property and formed collective farms, he dismissed parliament. This man was a "democrat"?

Do you have problems understanding the word democracy? All of those were popular measures (the man was loved in Iran at the time of his overthrow). Countries are allowed to nationalize industries and especially when backed by the people. I'd rather have the army controled by a democratically elected Prime Minister than a monarchical Shah. Stripping people of property and going for collectivization is fine under democracy when most people want it. And, again, he dismissed Majlis after the US and UK began to try to oust him.

	25-09-2004 01:39									#222
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight mindseye what would happen if you talked bad of China right now and called for the removal of the Communist regime?

Sorry I just saw this.

To be honest, I'm not sure what you are asking. Do you mean, could I do that on the internet? Here at Apolyton, no problem. On a major BBS hosted inside the PRC, I could, but the post probably wouldn't last long.

Is that what you are asking about?

	25-09-2004 04:56									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Even if the devil is good at his job it's still not a good idea to hire him. Touche

How so? When it comes to advancing the national interest, I don't really care how they get things done. I'm fairly amoral when it comes to things like that.

	25-09-2004 06:01									#224
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How so? When it comes to advancing the national interest, I don't really care how they get things done. I'm fairly amoral when it comes to things like that.

Yes we know -- you constantly complain about your "give a ****" is broken and ask where you can go to get it repaired.

	25-09-2004 06:17									#225
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc How so? When it comes to advancing the national interest, I don't really care how they get things done. I'm fairly amoral when it comes to things like that.

There is a huge difference between what you are told is in the nations best interest and what is actually in the nation's best interest.

	25-09-2004 06:21									#226
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Imran, He dismissed parliament because his coalition was about to lose power. He was becoming extremely unpopular due to his socialist confiscations and dictatorial powers. Here is a short quote:

"On Aug. 30, 1952, Iran turned down a joint Anglo-American proposal designed to break the oil deadlock. In the proposal Great Britain for the first time accepted the Iranian nationalization law as valid, but still insisted that compensation be based on potential revenue losses as well as on physical assets of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co. Iran broke off diplomatic relations with Great Britain on October 22.

Early in 1953 the parliament extended Mossadegh’s dictatorial powers for another year. The prime minister demanded that the shah be stripped of power.

The dissension between pro- and anti-Mossadegh forces reached a climax during the summer of 1953. The premier dissolved the lower house on the basis of a plebiscite (August 3–10) in which he suspended the secret ballot."

http://www.worldalmanacforkids.com/...r038100.a60.c70

	25-09-2004 10:27									#227
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quote: He was becoming extremely unpopular due to his socialist confiscations and dictatorial powers. Here is a short quote:

Which doesn't prove any of your assertions . Because there were some anti-Mossadegh forces he was 'extremely unpopular'? And as we know, the CIA and MI6 sponsored the anti-Mossadegh forces as a part of Operation Ajax.

It's kind of funny that he was becoming unpopular because of his 'socialist confiscations' when he was so utterly popular after his nationalization plans that the Shah was forced to re-offer him the Prime Minister job after sacking him. He nationalized in 1951 and was overwhelming voted as PM by the Majlis in 1952. Sorry, that explination does not wash. As for his dictatorial powers, there is no proof that I've seen that his popularity declined as a result. Many populist leaders will gain popularity when taking more and more power. And, once again, the US and UK moved in BEFORE he dismissed the Majlis. You keep ignoring that point because it destroys your entire argument. That's ok, I'm keeping score too.

What is it lately with your 'quotes' you post that don't support any of the positions you are advocating?

	25-09-2004 10:41									#228
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Imran, who were those landlords whose estates were confiscated? If you doubt this, just how much ordinary people hate the imposition of communism, look at Venezuela today.

I agree, that he was popular when he went after the Brits. But when he turned on his own people, he became a pariah to all but the radicals, like the Tudeh.

He got rid of parliament because he was about to lose power.

	25-09-2004 11:04									#229
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quote: f you doubt this, just how much ordinary people hate the imposition of communism, look at Venezuela today.

IIRC, Chavez won the referendum by a damned good amount.

quote: he was popular when he went after the Brits.

And the Brits and Amis went after him when he was at the height of his popularity after being elected to the Prime Minister position. So they went after a democratic leader and tried to get the monarchists back in power in the Majlis.

	25-09-2004 12:58									#230
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You ingore that he had himself declard Dictator by parliament and had forced the Shah to turn control of the army over to him long prior to the coup being approved by Ike.

Face it, Imran, he was a usurper, not a prime minister.

	26-09-2004 14:55									#231
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Because you say so?

He was voted Prime Minister by the Majlis and then re-elected to the position. He was removed by the Shah, but then because Massadegh was so popular he had him installed as PM again.

Of course the US and Brits decided to get rid of him before his relection as PM. Well before Mossadegh had the Majlis put on hold.

Face it, Ned, you've been proven wrong. In other language, you've been PWNED!

	26-09-2004 20:55									#232
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Imran, he had himself declared Dictator by parliament, chased the Shah out of Iran, and dissolved parliament permanently.

And you say I am PWNED?

	26-09-2004 22:30									#233
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Does anybody actually seriously listen to these political puppets spew their meaningless speeches?

	26-09-2004 23:53									#234
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On Meet the Press, the panelists said the first half of Kerry's speech, Kerry sounded like Dean and that the second half sounded like Bush. People listening to his speech could get confused as to what Kerry really wanted to do.

	27-09-2004 09:51									#235
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quote: Imran, he had himself declared Dictator by parliament, chased the Shah out of Iran, and dissolved parliament permanently. And you say I am PWNED?

The US and Britain were plotting to take him out before he was even relected as Prime Minister. Before any 'dictatorial' moves. Yes, I'd say you are badly PWNED.

	27-09-2004 09:54									#236
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** MrFun puts padding on the wall before Imran knocks himself out

	27-09-2004 09:55									#237
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Thanks

	27-09-2004 09:55									#238
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So be it, Imran. I have been PWNED by an imbecile.

	27-09-2004 09:56									#239
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I will do anything to see Ned get trounced.

	27-09-2004 09:57									#240
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I will do anything to see Ned get trounced.

MrFun, I adore you. How could you say such a thing?