23-09-2004 12:06									#91
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I agree taht our cities are built for cars. But let's be clear:

It's not that we need cars because we don't have mass transit.
It's that we don't ask for mass transit because we're all so in love with our cars.

It's the same reason we don't have a decent inter-urban rail network, let alone high-speed rail.

It's all about car-love.

	23-09-2004 12:14									#92
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

New York City experimented with bike lanes -- set up the lanes, made regulations, put up sign, ran education and advertising campaigns, etc.

Then, they ran into an insurmountable problem.

New Yorkers.

	23-09-2004 12:19									#93
	Suffering from ads?

No doubt there is a great love for cars in North America, but that doesn't mean we can't design cities for people instead of cars. We can also design cities for mass transit.

The love for cars also has limits. People may love owning a car, but given a choice between sitting in a traffic jam vs riding a subway, most people would choose a subway if they had a real choice.

The population density thing is a red herring. Calgary has an excellent transit line, even through its a relatively small city.

	23-09-2004 12:24									#94
	Remove this text

Red Herring? Line? singular? Does that line lead outside the city?

Are you on crack?

	23-09-2004 13:17									#95
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Is this just in the downtown business area? Does it apply to side streets.

In the case of Brussels, it was 160 km^2 (see map)

quote: The one problem I see with this idea is what happens if you live in the no-car zone? Let's say you go away on a trip and arrive back in town on a Sunday. Would the no-car rules allow you to drive home?

The operation was planned long in advance, so all inhabitants were well informed. Medias also reminded it regularly one month before the day.
In case you forgot, or you're a stranger unaware of this, you have taxis.

address for info:
Dutch: http://www.autolozezondag.irisnet.be/
French: http://www.dimanchesansvoiture.irisnet.be/

	23-09-2004 15:26									#96
	Tired of ads?

So that was just a one day thing?

Is it going to be expanded?

What's the general reaction to it?

Good on you guys for doing it. Sounds like fun.

In Toronto, once a year they close down a highway and only let bikes on it. It's blast racing down it.

	23-09-2004 15:38									#97
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I am very strongly in favor of the "no-car day" although I'd prefer to see it during the weekend (preferably on Sundays) than in weekdays. It was a big flop this year, as it was barely enforced: most people who didn't use their car did it on a voluntary basis, or did it because they believed it would be enforced.

I think the no-car day has a real merit: it shows many people that public transportation is a viable -and often preferrable- solution to going by car.

For example my mother (a teacher) works in a higschool that is 15 minutes away by car, and 20 minutes away by the subway. Whenever there is a problem that forbids the use of a car, she takes the subway (btw, I did take the subway 100% of the time I want to that highschool, as I studied there for a year). I'd wish she took the subway on every time.

However, my father drives ~300km a day in the Paris area. In general, from suburbs to suburbs. If he took the mass transit system, he'd spend his whole day in transit, and couldn't get any job done.

I personally don't drive. Almost all of my needs are satisfied with public transportation, and I absolutely need a car about twice a year (when moving). At 23, I'm only starting to learn how to drive, because some jobs require it, as public transportation sucks in the further suburbia where many businesses are located.

	23-09-2004 15:45									#98
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Park where? Id rather just take my car on into the city and do what I have to do instead of parking on the outskirts, waiting for public transport, then do what i have to do then wait on public transport and then....... I mean people who live in the city should be required to walk or use public transport and leave the driving to those visiting the city

I'm living in the close suburbs of Paris. If I go there by car, I'll likely spend as much time going there as I'll spend time looking for a parking spot.

Many modern Mass Transit projects now consider those living in the further suburbia who must commute. They offer huge parking spots at the end station of a mass transit line, so that the Suburbians can park without trouble, and then go to the city-core with an efficient and frequent mass transit.

For example, I spent a week 30 km away from Toulouse (a big city in southern France). As I wanted to visit the city, my hosts drove me on the highway to the end station, and I took the subway from there. Instead of spending 45-odd minutes in order to reach the city-core (which is congested) and to find a paking spot, the drive lasted 15 minutes.

to public transportation. most of those who have a sedentary job could be able to use it, and stop congesting the city cores

	23-09-2004 15:51									#99
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Dissident how do you carry all your groceries if you are riding a bycycle?

1. You buy your groceries in a store at walking distance of your home. Plenty of this in Paris and suburbs (close suburbs are almost as dense as inner Paris). Plenty of this in Germany too.

2. You take the mass transit to some big supermarket that is accessible.

3. You use your car once a week to go to a huge mall, and buy your groceries for the week.

	23-09-2004 16:17									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I walked across most of Boston, Montreal, Manhattan and Philadelphia when I was there. It's eminently cyclable if it wasn't for the other road users not being used to them. England has a similar issue with bike users, there's only a few cities (Cambridge, Oxford mainly) that have fully integrated cycle lanes and the like. I have tested it before, and i can get across town on my bike without breaking any traffic rules about twice as fast as a car leaving and gonig to the same place.

When I stayed in Munich for a few weeks this summer i was very impressed by the public transport. Intercity trains to all nearby cities (we went to Salzburg for a few days), the S Bahn (light railways/metro) connecting the suburbs (and the nearby lakes) to central Munich, good bus services and cheap cabs. Combine that with lots of cycle routes and it's ideal I think.

	23-09-2004 19:02									#101
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai The population density thing is a red herring. Calgary has an excellent transit line, even through its a relatively small city.

I disagree, having had to live with it most of my life.

I lived by Nose Hill Park, and it took 45 minutes to get to campus after they opened a new LRT station, for my "convenience".

My bus winds through two neighborhoods before it finally reaches the LRT, which is a mere 2 stops away from campus. I wait 10-15 minutes (the timing is such that the bus pulls up as the train pulls away, and it's 15 mins between trains).

Then you take the train down to campus, where the train station is conveniently as far away from the science/engineering/compsci buildings as possible, forcing a 15 minute walk on top of it.

If I took a car, it's 10 minutes. Max.

	23-09-2004 19:36									#102
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Dissident needing A/C is a myth. I plan on riding a bike to work next summer. And yes, I'll be doing it in the hottest part of the day.

My heart weeps for your co-workers.

Hopefully you work out doors, in construction or something.

	23-09-2004 20:57									#103
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: needing A/C is a myth. Needing A/C in 100 degree F (in the shade) weather is a 'myth'. I'd love to see you try.

native americans got by without it. I think you are confusing need- with a luxery. Although I admit it's a very useful luxery- not one I'm willing to give up at this time.

	24-09-2004 01:15									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: native americans got by without it.

And they really lived densely packed in the desert Come on, Diss. We are living in places that the Native Americans didn't. The Pueblos and other tribes down in the Southwest tried to live next to the water, not the desert... ie, Las Vegas.

	24-09-2004 04:47									#105
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Southern Paiutes did live in the middle of the valley. In fact, they still have land in the middle of the valley that was given (given doesn't seem to be the right word esp. considering the land was already their's, but I digress) to them. They have a smoke shop on Main street.

But remember what the meaning of Las Vegas is in spanish. We did have natural springs that came up from the ground. We still do kind of. While we are a desert, we had a small oasis in the middle of the valley.

	24-09-2004 05:54									#106
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

And do you think that they are more than a few hundred there, Diss? You wouldn't even be able to have a 'strip' without A/C. It's why that area wasn't developed for so long.

	24-09-2004 06:14									#107
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

the place I work first opened with swamp coolers. That's all we had back in the 50's.

But most people don't like swamp coolers. They fell out of popular use. A/C is king where I live. I admit it.

	24-09-2004 07:53									#108
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Asher I disagree, having had to live with it most of my life.

Okay, you know more about it than me, but I thought you had said that it was a great system.

	24-09-2004 08:56									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Okay, you know more about it than me, but I thought you had said that it was a great system.

It's okay, provided you live in a busy neighborhood and don't need to transfer to a bus after the train.

Basically, the city is too spread out and the ridership too low to have busses/trains running as frequently as they should. It really adds up if you need to take a trip via bus -> train -> bus (very common, I may add).

You wait up to 30 minutes for your first bus, drive on the bus through an entire neighborhood or two, then to the train station.

Then you wait up to 15 minutes for a train, and take it for up to 45 minutes (depending on how far you go).

Then you wait up to 30 minutes again for a bus, and drive on that through a neighborhood or two til you get to your stop.

Quite painful.