24-09-2004 22:14									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski It is hypocrisy. They say all animal testing should stop, but thank God for animal testing in my case.

It's only hypocricy if they benefit from current testing of animals. If. for example, they required a medicine that could only be obtained by killing animals, then that would be hypocricy, for example, taking shark cartiledge (assuming it actually worked). Just as it's not hypocricy for someone living in the United States to protest the current mistreatment of the American Indians.

quote: Animal testing stops, medical advancements stop, it's that simple.

That's only true in some cases. Not all. It's not that simple. A lot of tests done on animals are completely unnecessary and cruel. Cosmetics testing is completely unnecessary. We have shampoos, soaps, make-up, face cremes etc. that already function. We don't need more, thus any testing on animals for new products is simple cruelty for the sake of vanity and profit.

While I certainly don't want all animal testing to stop, I think a lot of it could be done away with.

	24-09-2004 22:17									#62
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I agree with Che, there is a lot of stupid animal testing done, that makes no sense.

There is, however, a lot of important animal testing that goes on.

	24-09-2004 22:19									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber Necessary? No. But eating animals are oh so delicious.

While very, very true, it is not a valid counter-argument to the point. A better counter argument would be to point out that the Atkins diets seems to indicate that a diet high in meat and fish is far more healthy than a vegitarian diet. The counter-counter argument however is that it's actually possible to have a vegitarian Atkins diet. The counter-counter-counter-arugment would be that it would likely still involve animal exploitation, however, since without meat, the dieter would require a massive increase in dairy and egg products.

BTW, I have a freezer full of meat, which I will probably have to cook on Sunday because of the damned hurricane.

	24-09-2004 22:19									#64
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It's only hypocricy if they benefit from current testing of animals. If. for example, they required a medicine that could only be obtained by killing animals, then that would be hypocricy, for example, taking shark cartiledge (assuming it actually worked). Just as it's not hypocricy for someone living in the United States to protest the current mistreatment of the American Indians.

Nobody derives benefits from current research, it's research.
To give you an idea of animal research leading to medical care:

Anaesthetics

Anticoagulants

Asthma therapy

Blood transfusion

Diphtheria vaccine

Drugs for high blood pressure

Drugs to control transplant rejection

Heart lung machine

Heart replacement valves

Hib meningitis vaccine

Insulin for diabetes

Kidney dialysis

Leukaemia treatments

Penicillin

Polio vaccine

Transplants

Whooping cough (pertussis) vaccine

quote: That's only true in some cases. Not all. It's not that simple. A lot of tests done on animals are completely unnecessary and cruel. Cosmetics testing is completely unnecessary. We have shampoos, soaps, make-up, face cremes etc. that already function. We don't need more, thus any testing on animals for new products is simple cruelty for the sake of vanity and profit. While I certainly don't want all animal testing to stop, I think a lot of it could be done away with.

Cosmetics and shampoo and so forth, I agree with, it should stop. This seems cruel and a waste.

Medical research may be cruel, but it does serve a positive purpose.

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	24-09-2004 22:22									#65
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Tubers; I don't think the if in Che's statement indicates that such testing doesn't exist, only that some testing occurs that doesn't benefit mankind. He is not saying that there is no current animal testing that benefits humanity... That would just be absurd.

	24-09-2004 22:25									#66
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's a stupid counter-argument. Humans are perfectly capable of living as herbivores, thus the killng of animals for food is not necessary for humans. Preditors are not capable of living as herbivores, and thus must eat other animals to live. Furthermore, herbivores evolved in concert with carnivores, and require their existence in order to prevent overpopulation and species die-off. Human meat eating does not play this role in nature.

are you a veggie che?

edit. never mind i read further

	24-09-2004 22:27									#67
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quote: Humans are perfectly capable of living as herbivores

capable or natural? Definitly not natural. Don't ask me to defy myself.

	24-09-2004 22:33									#68
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara While very, very true, it is not a valid counter-argument to the point. A better counter argument would be to point out that the Atkins diets seems to indicate that a diet high in meat and fish is far more healthy than a vegitarian diet. The counter-counter argument however is that it's actually possible to have a vegitarian Atkins diet. The counter-counter-counter-arugment would be that it would likely still involve animal exploitation, however, since without meat, the dieter would require a massive increase in dairy and egg products.

Good post-- but the delicousnessof beef is enough for me. My view is that animals are a natuural resource to be exploited. I agree that we should avoid cruelty and inflicting pain so I agree that a lot of animal testing should stop for cosmetics etc. But if implanting malignant tumors in white mice saves just ONE human life, I'm fine with that.

Oh and did I mention . . . Beef yum??

had a buffalo burger last week and that was real good too. That reminds me . .. I should get some caribou or moose

	24-09-2004 22:34									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Medical research may be cruel, but it does serve a positive purpose.

I agree. This doesn't, however, support your contention that members of PETA who use insulin are hypocrites.

Hypocricy is saying one thing while not obeying it. PETA is not saying people should not benefit from past animal testing. That would be like saying that everyone who ever ate meat should hack off an arm and a leg. The animals have already ben tortured and killed. It does them no good to refuse to use the medical knowledge gained. If PETA went around secretly eating meat, that would be hypocricy.

What PETA argues (incorrectly I might add), is that we can now use computers to model chemical interactions and get our medical knowledge thatway. Eventually this might actually be the case, but it isn't true today.

	24-09-2004 22:34									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tattila the Hun Because we hunt with tools. If we'd run after a gazelle, and rip it's throat open to kill it, then rip chunks of meat from the carcas to eat it... No problem for PETA. One can't hunt potatoes... And look sane, speaking from experience.

we aren't allowed to use our intelligence, but animals are allowed to use what they gained from the evolutionary process.

	24-09-2004 22:37									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I agree. This doesn't, however, support your contention that members of PETA who use insulin are hypocrites. Hypocricy is saying one thing while not obeying it. PETA is not saying people should not benefit from past animal testing. That would be like saying that everyone who ever ate meat should hack off an arm and a leg. The animals have already ben tortured and killed. It does them no good to refuse to use the medical knowledge gained. If PETA went around secretly eating meat, that would be hypocricy. What PETA argues (incorrectly I might add), is that we can now use computers to model chemical interactions and get our medical knowledge thatway. Eventually this might actually be the case, but it isn't true today.

It is hypocrisy to say:

While I benefit from previous animal medical research, I don't want anyone else to ever benefit from animal research that is still being done.

Just because some people aren't lucky enough to have diabetes, which has already benefitted, doesn't mean they don't deserve the same chance to benefit.

So, yes, she is a hypocrite.

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	24-09-2004 22:42									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Flubber My view is that animals are a natural resource to be exploited.

Beef is not a natural resource. Some fish and seafood products are, but these are generally over exploited and are causing collapsing stocks (exceptions being the Pacific Halibut and the Stone Crab) or massive collateral damage to non-target species. Animal farming (including the farming of fish and shrimp) are extremely wasteful in terms of water and feed, and also tend to result in massive local pollution which generally overwhelms the ability of local ecosystems to sustain themselves.

quote: if implanting malignant tumors in white mice saves just ONE human life, I'm fine with that.

I agree. I am a speciesist. I think humans are the most important thing around. Of course, I am a human, so I'm not necessarily objective on the matter. My general view on animal rights is that treating animals better is better for us. Saving our environment means there is a place for us. Not eating everything in sight means there's food for us in the future.

	24-09-2004 22:46									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski It is hypocrisy to say: While I benefit from previous animal medical research, I don't want anyone else to ever benefit from animal research that is still being done.

That's like saying someone's a hypocrite for begin a vegitarian if they ever ate meat in the past. It's not hypocricy to say we know better now, but we should benefit off of what we did in the past.

Would you argue that everyone who says we should stop dicking over the American Indian should move to Europe? You and I benefit from the theft of Indain lands and the genocide against Indians in the 19th Century. Is it hypocricy to say that it's wrong to keep shafting American Indians?

	24-09-2004 22:48									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Whoha we aren't allowed to use our intelligence, but animals are allowed to use what they gained from the evolutionary process.

Actually, PETA is arguing that because we are intelligent, we don't need to do a lot of the things that we do, just because it's easier or tastier, etc.

	24-09-2004 22:50									#75
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PETA doesn't want animals to have as much rights as humans. They want them to have more. For humans are intelligent and should suffer for having ability to choose. Of course they (peta) are not rational fair or sane, there are other organisations who already do that. Nobody would listen to them if they weren't radical.

I think PETA members who need any drugs made with the help of animal testing should just stop using them. Why? Because that would be consistent with their line of radical stunts they pull. When a high profile member dies it means publicity. It would show people they really mean business for once making almost a selfish act. It's easier to make others give up their cruel traditions, or make them suffer for the things they are used to do.

Necessary is a funny word. How much activies people do could be considered as unnecessary. What would be left? Hmm

	24-09-2004 22:51									#76
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I agree with Tubers. It is hypocracy.

By benefiting from something you wish to stop you are being a hypocrit.

Protest Lumber Industry - Live in Wood House

Protest Oil Industry - Drive a Car

Who cares if it isn't the "same" wood my current house is built of or the same "gas" I have in my car now.

Of course, all in general, not for specific cases. Most PETA member, AFAIK, are against all forms of animal testing. If they take anything that was tested on an animal it shows their support. If what they are currently protesting produces a drug in the future that they benefit from, the are hypocrits. Regardless when something occured, if you support it but protest it than you are a hypocrit.

Time is not the issue.

	24-09-2004 22:54									#77
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That's like saying someone's a hypocrite for begin a vegitarian if they ever ate meat in the past. It's not hypocricy to say we know better now, but we should benefit off of what we did in the past. Would you argue that everyone who says we should stop dicking over the American Indian should move to Europe? You and I benefit from the theft of Indain lands and the genocide against Indians in the 19th Century. Is it hypocricy to say that it's wrong to keep shafting American Indians?

No it's not, she is still benefitting from the research, if she benefitted from it in the past

Your analogy would hold water. She would be dead if she didn't use that benefit. But she thinks that other people should die at the expense of animals, while she survives....at the expense of animals.

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	24-09-2004 23:06									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I agree with Tubers. It is hypocracy. By benefiting from something you wish to stop you are being a hypocrit. Protest Lumber Industry - Live in Wood House Protest Oil Industry - Drive a Car Who cares if it isn't the "same" wood my current house is built of or the same "gas" I have in my car now. Of course, all in general, not for specific cases. Most PETA member, AFAIK, are against all forms of animal testing. If they take anything that was tested on an animal it shows their support. If what they are currently protesting produces a drug in the future that they benefit from, the are hypocrits. Regardless when something occured, if you support it but protest it than you are a hypocrit. Time is not the issue.

It's like being a vegetarian and still eat meat "because the animal has already been killed"

	24-09-2004 23:09									#79
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Get out of America you hypocrites!

	24-09-2004 23:10									#80
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Get out of America you hypocrites!

Translated: I've lost this argument.....



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	24-09-2004 23:16									#81
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I don't agree. If you say that believing that by opposing something that you think is wrong now, but that you benefit off it it's practice in the past is hypocricy, then most of you are hypocrites for benefitting from genocide, theft, slavery, the subjugation of women, etc. etc. You may as well kill yourself now, you are so evil.

	24-09-2004 23:28									#82
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara would be that it would likely still involve animal exploitation, however, since without meat, the dieter would require a massive increase in dairy and egg products.

I once met a vegan who seriously argued that since we've bred cows to a point where they need to be milked, we have to milk them (by finding them in the wild, of course - every cow every day), but it's not acceptable to use the milk - that would be exploitation.

	24-09-2004 23:31									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I once met a vegan who seriously argued that since we've bred cows to a point where they need to be milked, . . .

S/he didn't know what s/he was talking about. Anyone who knows a little bit about dairy farming can tell you that milk cows must be milked so that they don't stop producing milk. Just like humans, milking cows only produce milk as long as there is a demand for that milk. As soon as the demand dries up, so does the milk.

	24-09-2004 23:32									#84
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't agree. If you say that believing that by opposing something that you think is wrong now, but that you benefit off it it's practice in the past is hypocricy, then most of you are hypocrites for benefitting from genocide, theft, slavery, the subjugation of women, etc. etc. You may as well kill yourself now, you are so evil.

Of course we are. You make a good point.

But, none of these were done to my direct benefit. And all of those happened to humans not animals.

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	24-09-2004 23:32									#85
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Milk, milk, mmmmmiiiillllk, what a funny looking word.

	24-09-2004 23:34									#86
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Good with Oreos, good for teeth and bones, bad for my stomach.

I'll still drink it with Oreos on occasion, but I won't
drink it just ot help my teeth and bones.

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Last edited by Tuberski on 24-09-2004 at 23:46

	24-09-2004 23:35									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist I once met a vegan who seriously argued that since we've bred cows to a point where they need to be milked, we have to milk them (by finding them in the wild, of course - every cow every day), but it's not acceptable to use the milk - that would be exploitation.

Hey this vegan would think that PETA members shouldn't use the benefits of animal testing.
Using 'immorally' taken goods is forbidden then, remember to remind her next time you see her, just incase she supports PETA.

	24-09-2004 23:44									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski But, none of these were done to my direct benefit.

Sure they were. You're an American, so you directly benefit. It would be very difficult to be an American had those events not occured.

Humans versus animals ins't a good counter-point, because hypocricy isn't depentent on the object (animal testing, stealing indian lands) but rather the subject (PETA diabetics and modern Americans).

	24-09-2004 23:45									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski Good with Oreos,

I hate you. Now I have a craving for milk and Oreos.

	24-09-2004 23:46									#90
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Sure they were. You're an American, so you directly benefit. It would be very difficult to be an American had those events not occured. Humans versus animals ins't a good counter-point, because hypocricy isn't depentent on the object (animal testing, stealing indian lands) but rather the subject (PETA diabetics and modern Americans).

I already said we were hypocrites.......

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