16-10-2004 01:28									#361
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Allied victories were never allowed and the sole allied victory happened in contradiction of the rules while you were GM. However, I'm willing to repeat the vote on this issue in the next sign-up. There will be a vote on how to stop spy exploit too and I'll repeat the vote on shields.

You're entitled to your opinion. However, during this game the GM ruled they were allowed, as is his right, and myself and GT played it accordingly. Our win stands.

	16-10-2004 03:08									#362
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Now were the last seven turns really necessary? Skanky, Kass, and Joncha could have simply surrendered to GT on after Turn 6 and ended the game there.

	16-10-2004 03:09									#363
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike You're entitled to your opinion. However, during this game the GM ruled they were allowed, as is his right, and myself and GT played it accordingly. Our win stands.

In principal, I agree. However, if the rule changes the very essence of the game, rendering one strategy pointless while at the same time favouring heavily another one, and if it's done after the game has already started, I believe GM is not allowed to make such a change. Particularly if the profound change I'm talking about was made public the first time at the moment of its application.

For example, don't you think the other players would have played the game differently from the beginning, had they known allied victories were allowed?

	16-10-2004 03:21									#364
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Now were the last seven turns really necessary? Skanky, Kass, and Joncha could have simply surrendered to GT on after Turn 6 and ended the game there.

I don't understand why they surrendered. They played the whole game for GeneralTacticus. I would normally understand such a play if the player that played this way stood no chance to win. This was not the case. Either one of the three could easily have won this had they wanted to and played accordingly.

	16-10-2004 03:50									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko In principal, I agree. However, if the rule changes the very essence of the game, rendering one strategy pointless while at the same time favouring heavily another one, and if it's done after the game has already started, I believe GM is not allowed to make such a change. Particularly if the profound change I'm talking about was made public the first time at the moment of its application. For example, don't you think the other players would have played the game differently from the beginning, had they known allied victories were allowed?

Well we played as per the rules after asking the GM. You are free to believe cooperative wins shouldn't be allowed, but note that votes have been close in the past on this issue, so it's not cut and dried.

A win is a win, and counts as a win (funnily enough).

On that note welcome GT to the prestigious two times winner club.

	16-10-2004 03:53									#366
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Does this mean a new game is about to start

-Jam

	16-10-2004 03:55									#367
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Nothing gets past you does it?

	16-10-2004 04:07									#368
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Well we played as per the rules after asking the GM. You are free to believe cooperative wins shouldn't be allowed, but note that votes have been close in the past on this issue, so it's not cut and dried. A win is a win, and counts as a win (funnily enough). On that note welcome GT to the prestigious two times winner club.

Dodging the issue Doc? You asked him all right, but not publicly and very, very late. You can't say now your allied victory was a fair one, all things considered.

	16-10-2004 04:38									#369
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Speaking of which, someone want to add Galactic Overlord to the hall of fame at the top of this forum?

	16-10-2004 05:03									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Now were the last seven turns really necessary? Skanky, Kass, and Joncha could have simply surrendered to GT on after Turn 6 and ended the game there.

Um... what? Those "last seven turns" comprised more than half the game, and there were still a great many other players around at the time.

	16-10-2004 05:20									#371
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Oh, and regarding Co-Op victories - to my knowledge, they were neither expressly allowed nor disallowed, which is why I bothered to ask in the first place. I accept that it's no longer allowed, and I accept the reasoning behind that, but at the time, there no rules one way or the other, so Skanky had every right, and in fact was required, to make the call on whether to allow it or not.

	16-10-2004 06:04									#372
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Um... what? Those "last seven turns" comprised more than half the game, and there were still a great many other players around at the time.

Great many other players? There were the four of you, me, and Spaced Cowboy. It was essentially a very lopsided 3 way game. Those client states were giving you 3 additional actions per turn. Doc's co-op victory involved two parties with nearly equal strength.

	16-10-2004 06:08									#373
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Ok, I looked back at the turn reprots, and you are correct regarding the numbers of remaining players. However, I think it should be noted that until you wiped out practically all of Skanky's fleet, I was hardly the most powerful player in the alliance, and I was expecting to have to fight him to be the final winner. Him being rendered effectively powerless rather changed that...

	16-10-2004 07:27									#374
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Yes. The decision to surrender was only made on the eve of this turn. It seemed the most appropriate way to conclude our cooperative effort.

	16-10-2004 07:37									#375
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On Turn 9, prior to my attack on Skanky, the Skank had barely half your tonnage.

Next game, I'll choose my targets more carefully...

Still a mystery to me, what caused the Kass-Joncha alliance to merge with the Skanky-GT alliance?

	16-10-2004 08:55									#376
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Prior to most of my fleet being wiped out, I had a chance against GT. Post, a surrender was the quickest way to get a new game started.

	16-10-2004 09:07									#377
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Still a mystery to me, what caused the Kass-Joncha alliance to merge with the Skanky-GT alliance?

It seemed like a good idea at the time.

	16-10-2004 09:15									#378
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Its only because Kassi rolled a 20 on his diplomacy check.
At least, thats what he told us he rolled. :suspicious:

	16-10-2004 10:28									#379
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quote: It seemed like a good idea at the time.

I'd thought you'd at least have gotten the bulk of the bases in exchange for your spy services... you should demand better terms next time.

	16-10-2004 13:18									#380
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Oh, and regarding Co-Op victories - to my knowledge, they were neither expressly allowed nor disallowed, which is why I bothered to ask in the first place. I accept that it's no longer allowed, and I accept the reasoning behind that, but at the time, there no rules one way or the other, so Skanky had every right, and in fact was required, to make the call on whether to allow it or not.

Ever since the start the rule read: You win the game by destroying all the bases and fleets of your opponents to become the Galactic Overlord^tm!!!

The rule clearly states there can be only one Galactic Overlord and that the one wins by destroying all bases and fleets of one's opponents.

	16-10-2004 13:33									#381
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One's ally is not one's opponent.

	16-10-2004 13:42									#382
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I disagree. They were not allies before the game and they were bitter opponents at the start, hence they were opponents in the sense of the rule.

	16-10-2004 14:15									#383
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quote: Originally posted by Ljube-ljcvetko Dodging the issue Doc? You asked him all right, but not publicly and very, very late. You can't say now your allied victory was a fair one, all things considered.

Actually we asked early, when there was still time to fight it out if he said no. All the player can do is check the rules with the GM and follow them. We did, and we won.

	16-10-2004 14:17									#384
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus Oh, and regarding Co-Op victories - to my knowledge, they were neither expressly allowed nor disallowed, which is why I bothered to ask in the first place. I accept that it's no longer allowed, and I accept the reasoning behind that, but at the time, there no rules one way or the other, so Skanky had every right, and in fact was required, to make the call on whether to allow it or not.

Hear hear, and trying to backdate later rules decisions (from a close vote btw) to earlier games is just stupid.

	16-10-2004 14:28									#385
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For the record, the PM enquiring about a co-operative victory was sent on Turn 13, of a 21-round game. At the time, there were still five players remaining, and I hadn't even allied with Spike yet. If the answer had been no, the endgame would likely have unfolded very differently.

	16-10-2004 14:37									#386
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Quite.

	16-10-2004 14:57									#387
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quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus For the record, the PM enquiring about a co-operative victory was sent on Turn 13, of a 21-round game. At the time, there were still five players remaining, and I hadn't even allied with Spike yet. If the answer had been no, the endgame would likely have unfolded very differently.

That should have not been a PM in the first place.
Second, it should have been made public immediately after the ruling.

Skanky's decision to pronounce you two winners came as a surprise to everybody but the three of you. And the surprise soon turned to outrage.

	16-10-2004 15:09									#388
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Um, actually you are the only one whinging about it. It's over and we won. Deal with it.

	16-10-2004 15:16									#389
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Um, as the GM I declare Smiley winner of Galactic Overlord 6. Let's start Galactic Overlord 7. It's over and he won. Deal with it.