01-10-2004 03:41									#301
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That alone deserves another



You mean besides wars and stuff?

(That's being generous, btw - it's still a blatant assertion on your part that they didn't.)

btw, Natalinasmpf is a she.

	01-10-2004 04:01									#302
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: At what price does Snickers have to sell their candy bars to sell 50 times as many? How about 100 times? ... 1000 times? What's the point?

The 'laws' of demand and supply don't not hold true at the extremes. That's just one example. There are others.

	01-10-2004 04:16									#303
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What do you mean?

What sort of extreme?

I don't get your point. Do you mean that the mathematical abstraction of demand and supply fails at extremes? If that's what you're talking about, it isn't a critique of the theory, given that the general supply and demand laws are exactly that, general. They're supposed to be mathematical approximations.

That would be like saying light doesn't obey the inverse-square law because light from the sun doesn't obey the inverse-square law.

	01-10-2004 04:30									#304
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quote: That would be like saying light doesn't obey the inverse-square law because light from the sun doesn't obey the inverse-square law.

shut up

and i'm clueless too as to where kidicious is going with that...

	01-10-2004 04:31									#305
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quote: shut up

Why?

	01-10-2004 04:33									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris He's right. Super-egalitarian societies like the Amerindian ones had virtually no crime.

Good point. Eliminate property and possessions and there is nothing to covet.

	01-10-2004 04:36									#307
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don't get ***** slapped, kuciwalker... inverse square laws my ass...

	01-10-2004 04:49									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker What do you mean? What sort of extreme? I don't get your point. Do you mean that the mathematical abstraction of demand and supply fails at extremes? If that's what you're talking about, it isn't a critique of the theory, given that the general supply and demand laws are exactly that, general. They're supposed to be mathematical approximations.

laws aren't general. The're suppose to always hold true. But the're really just theories that don't hold true at the extremes. That's what we're talking about, right?

	01-10-2004 05:01									#309
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left/right econ: 3.62
lib/auth soc: -7.44

	01-10-2004 05:42									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That alone deserves another You mean besides wars and stuff? (That's being generous, btw - it's still a blatant assertion on your part that they didn't.) btw, Natalinasmpf is a she.

It's not a blatant assertion, it's based on the observations of anthropologists and historians. For instance, did you know that in the tribes of Algonquian tradition wealth was required to be redistributed? Not only by tradition, but also under the threat of social exclusion?

	01-10-2004 06:09									#311
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who cares at what price snickers needs to sell in order to sell 100 or a 1000 more. thats not the point of demand and supply - the point of demand and supply is to make sure that at a certain price, demand and supply are equal.

they might sell a thousand more, but then there would be more demand for them then there are snickers, thus they would increase the price until the amount they can supply will also equal the amount demanded.

which is also the point of maximum profits.

	01-10-2004 06:30									#312
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris It's not a blatant assertion, it's based on the observations of anthropologists and historians. For instance, did you know that in the tribes of Algonquian tradition wealth was required to be redistributed? Not only by tradition, but also under the threat of social exclusion?

Imagine that, people providing pressure on others to share their wealth! and forced redistribution! We should do that!

Oh, wait.

	01-10-2004 06:32									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious laws aren't general. The're suppose to always hold true. But the're really just theories that don't hold true at the extremes. That's what we're talking about, right?

The "law of demand and supply", as a precise mathematical rule, is only true in the limit as time goes to infinity. That's because it's a crude mathematical approximation of a chaotic system.

The law of supply and demand (and the theory behind laissez-faire capitalism) is true in the same way it is true that evolution through natural selection produces the most fit organisms.

	01-10-2004 07:41									#314
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia who cares at what price snickers needs to sell in order to sell 100 or a 1000 more. thats not the point of demand and supply - the point of demand and supply is to make sure that at a certain price, demand and supply are equal. they might sell a thousand more, but then there would be more demand for them then there are snickers, thus they would increase the price until the amount they can supply will also equal the amount demanded. which is also the point of maximum profits.

No. People will not buy an unlimited amount of candy bars at any price.

	01-10-2004 07:42									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Imagine that, people providing pressure on others to share their wealth! and forced redistribution! We should do that! Oh, wait.

Yeah, because we all know how poorly the American people perceives wealth and free market... how strongly they believe in communal property... how socially excluded are tax-evading billionaires....

	01-10-2004 07:43									#316
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Kidicious laws aren't general. The're suppose to always hold true. But the're really just theories that don't hold true at the extremes. That's what we're talking about, right? The "law of demand and supply", as a precise mathematical rule, is only true in the limit as time goes to infinity. That's because it's a crude mathematical approximation of a chaotic system. The law of supply and demand (and the theory behind laissez-faire capitalism) is true in the same way it is true that evolution through natural selection produces the most fit organisms.

No. It applies to an instant in time only.

	01-10-2004 07:56									#317
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kidicious... there's a difference between demand and quantity demanded...

	01-10-2004 09:34									#318
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quote: when you actually think that people always make fair judgements without bias to their personal situation.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth (btw, you do this quite often and then claim that it is definitive - sounds like you trying to convince yourself almost), but no. I think that people eventually make fair judgments, and that their biases help define the debate on that. After all, like I said, Rawls' rights are the rights that the 'biased' framers of the US Constitution came up with. They didn't need a veil of ignorance to make these fair rights, even though they had biases to their position.

	01-10-2004 10:20									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer kidicious... there's a difference between demand and quantity demanded...

Sure. But what's your point?

	01-10-2004 10:21									#320
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: when you actually think that people always make fair judgements without bias to their personal situation. Thanks for putting words in my mouth (btw, you do this quite often and then claim that it is definitive - sounds like you trying to convince yourself almost), but no. I think that people eventually make fair judgments, and that their biases help define the debate on that. After all, like I said, Rawls' rights are the rights that the 'biased' framers of the US Constitution came up with. They didn't need a veil of ignorance to make these fair rights, even though they had biases to their position.

You call slavery fair?

	01-10-2004 10:29									#321
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quote: You call slavery fair?

Slavery was a 'right' in the Constitution? I didn't see that in my Bill of Rights!

Is your knowledge of US civics just that poor?

	01-10-2004 14:44									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You call slavery fair? Slavery was a 'right' in the Constitution? I didn't see that in my Bill of Rights! Is your knowledge of US civics just that poor?

You need to play fair on this Imran. Certainly no protection for slavery was ever written into the US constitution but there was a time when SCOTUS rulings made protection of slave ownership a part of the constitution in much the same way that a right to privacy has been enshrined in our constitution entirely as a consequence of such rulings.

	01-10-2004 17:58									#323
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When robotics became self-aware, do we have to declare another form of emanicipation?

After all, it will start to have some very severe ethical questioning: why would conscious humans be superior to conscious [insert species here?]

	01-10-2004 18:37									#324
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quote: there was a time when SCOTUS rulings made protection of slave ownership a part of the constitution in much the same way that a right to privacy has been enshrined in our constitution entirely as a consequence of such rulings.

You NEED to be fair now. The right to privacy is considered a right which arises from the 1th, 4th, and 9th Amendments (penumbra of rights) and is actually considered a right. The SCOTUS decisions on slavery (Dred Scott being primary) never considered it a 'right'. Never said it arose from any of the Bill of Rights. They said the Constitution accepted slavery. Acceptance of slavery and there being a right to slavery are two vastly different things.

	01-10-2004 19:13									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Yeah, because we all know how poorly the American people perceives wealth and free market... how strongly they believe in communal property... how socially excluded are tax-evading billionaires....

How, precisely, do individuals evade the income tax?

Back up your bald assertions, please.

And you know, companies are pressured to donate to charity and such

	01-10-2004 19:14									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. It applies to an instant in time only.

Uh, no...

	01-10-2004 19:44									#327
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious No. People will not buy an unlimited amount of candy bars at any price.

You'll also notice on a supply and demand graph, that where price=0, quantity demanded is a finite amount. That is part of the laws of supply and demand.

	02-10-2004 01:16									#328
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue You'll also notice on a supply and demand graph, that where price=0, quantity demanded is a finite amount. That is part of the laws of supply and demand.

How can you have zero price? That in itself is a violation of the laws.

	02-10-2004 01:18									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Uh, no...

Ingnorance is one thing, but insisting that your not when you are is called something else.

	02-10-2004 01:21									#330
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo You need to play fair on this Imran.

That's too much to expect unfortunately. I've seen this too many times.