29-09-2004 22:21									#211
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quote: "Few and far between?" I beg to differ. In case you didn't know, they do stage protests against extremism. Before going ahead and generalising again, you should lose some ignorance - have you seen the religious messages inside the mosques here? The Muslims here actively campaign against the extreme violence of the terrorists who campaign in the name of their religion.... Get out of the well, you frog. I don't approve of the terrorist actions, but I am rather sympathetic to them, because such actions are mere expected reactions to blatant US Imperialism. If people in the name of Islam have done "x units" much terrible things, I think the US has done ten times as much such terrible things in the name of "freedom and democracy". Everytime I see US inhabitants who frequently diss other countries, arrogantly boast of how they'd whip or crudely refer to other countries, I can't help think why the UN doesn't expel the US from the General Assembly. By now with the World Wars, we should know nationalism brings disaster. Why are we being so patient with a country and system that only seeks to bring oppression, violence, disaster and hatred and ignorance upon the world?

Yes you are few and far between and your idea of moderate islam is obviously different from mine. The fact that you are declaring Jihad on us proves your warped view of what is and isn't extremism. Your last line there is really funny. As if you could do anything to us that would threaten us as a nation. A quick look at your friends in Iraq and Afghanistan will easily show that oppression, violence, disaster, hatred, and ignorance aren't just ideals they are standard operating procedures. Taliban anyone? Sympathy for terrorists makes you a terrorist plain and simple and I have no problem giving you your Jihad. Just come on out and fight, but then again I forget your kind likes to hide and attack civilians. As for the UN expelling us...probably because they are on US soil and we are the biggest contributers to the UN coffers. I would like nothing more than the UN to expell us so that we can finally expell them off our soil. The UN's lack of conviction and seemingly incompetence to do anything they are supposed to do is overwhelmingly apparent. Sudan? Peaceloving happy muslims at work.

	29-09-2004 22:23									#212
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In Animal Farm, it was Sugar Candy Mountain.

quote: I'd like a little justice in this world.

Well yes, but because something is abused, doesn't mean its inherently bad, is it? Food is good, but someone can poison it. In the same way, religion is like that. Christianity could explain that God allows the bourgeoisie (or any form of oppression) to abuse his name in order to test the people's faith.- but this does not mean the bourgeoise goes unpunished.

	29-09-2004 22:27									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf In Animal Farm, it was Sugar Candy Mountain. quote: I'd like a little justice in this world.

Rock Candy Mountain is a folk version of heaven from the 19th and early 20th Century.

	29-09-2004 22:28									#214
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight I don't see you speaking out against Islamic extremism or starting protests or anything of the sort. If you go along with it you are compliant and therefore no better than they are. While there are some good muslims out there they are few and far between and they never speak out or start protests against Islamic extremism. Everytime I see people cheering a beheading I can't help but think to myself "Why don't we just wipe out these animals?". Iraq is really the easiest country of all to liberate and look at the trouble we are having. Imagine trying to change a place like Saudi Arabia and change the mindset of the animals that inhabit there? I just don't ever see it happening and as more and more terrorist attacks happen I have to question why we are being so patient with a people that are out to kill us and impose their barbaric ways on the world.

Congratulations, you have the good mindset of a Muslim fanatic, only on the other side of the fence.

Many Arabs believe they could easily wipe out the animals that are the Jews, if their leaders decided not to be patient and/or cowardly toward them, and finally initiated the jihad. But their leaders grow complacent with the evil jewry, and thus the problem only continues to grow

	29-09-2004 22:37									#215
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quote: The fact that you are declaring Jihad on us proves your warped view of what is and isn't extremism.

I'm not. I'm just being cynical. If someone says, "break a leg"...its a figure of speech. I'm just posing as in the view of an Islamic extremist for a moment, so its easier to see a view.

quote: Sympathy for terrorists makes you a terrorist plain and simple and I have no problem giving you your Jihad.

What is this? Sympathy is hardly jihad. Even God rules we should be empathic and sympathetic to our fellow brothers and sisters, and to sinners - this does not mean condonement. If we see someone who has sinned,

If I a Christian, go over to a Muslim friend's house, I would be polite and respectful, adopt proper Muslim table manners at her house, etc. but that does not mean I automatically become a Muslim. If a rehab official counsels a criminal, he or she can be empathic or sympathetic to say, the bad family environment, but not necessarily support such actions. He or she then could say, raise up an issue in the city board, for example, to reduce unemployment to reduce a crime issue, using his or her experience as evidence.

quote: Yes you are few and far between

Empirical evidence? Do you live in a country with substiantial Muslim population (12% or more?)....if you don't have some form of empirical evidence, or have no such experience in dealing with entire Muslim populations, you don't have the authority to claim anything about Muslim demographics.

quote: Just come on out and fight, but then again I forget your kind likes to hide and attack civilians.

Oh look! The school bully who goes "scaredy-cat!"

Guerilla tactics are the tactics of the strong and smart. Attacks on civilians are another thing. Do you think they have any other choice to make their mark? Its a bloody act of war. Did you see what the US did to Dresden? Vietnam....?

The Jihad against the western world has yet to kill millions of civilians - but the US has already exceeded four million.

quote: As if you could do anything to us that would threaten us as a nation.

You contradict yourself, not explicitly so, but in attitude. You describe the horror of Islam and question why one would be patient with the religion at all, then proudly assert that Islam isn't a threat to the nation?

quote: Taliban anyone?

Reagan anyone?
Oh don't forget, President Jackson and his massacres of Native Americans.

quote: Sudan? Peaceloving happy muslims at work.

Wow. Coup of 1973 in Chile? Freedom loving CIA agents at work. Contra funding in Nicaragua from 1979 to 1990? Freedom loving CIA agents as well, eh?

Well, look it this: the UN has already expelled the US from its environmental protection department.

I also like how you evade my other points. Calling Singapore "one of the poorest of the nations of the world" - you don't seem to address that properly...maybe its because you can't admit to your ignorance?

	29-09-2004 22:43									#216
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And MalevolentLight, you keep referring to Muslims like I was one of them...in case you are not informed - my religion is Christianity. Yes, I have sympathies, but I don't support Islam as a religion of choice. You see, I'm just level-headed in assessing the situation.

I only know Islam so well, because, as well as fellow Christians I grow up with Muslims. With Hindus. With Buddhists. Taoists. Etc.

And it seems, only countries with insenstive goverments (US, Russia, Indonesia, et.c) have severe terrorist problems. Singapore has no trouble foiling terrorist attack after attack, again and again. Malaysia too.

Last edited by Natalinasmpf on 29-09-2004 at 22:52

	29-09-2004 23:23									#217
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quote: Athiests has also infested the likes of everywhere. Nietszche

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I only know Islam so well, because, as well as fellow Christians I grow up with Muslims. With Hindus. With Buddhists. Taoists. Etc.

Then what's your problem with Nietzsche or with atheists? Buddhists or Taoists don't believe in a god either.

	29-09-2004 23:29									#218
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My guess would be it's about the "moral degeneration" or whatever that she claims America is going through.

-Arrian

	29-09-2004 23:38									#219
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quote: Then what's your problem with Nietzsche or with atheists?

Well there are two types of athiests, ones who actively campaign against religion, seek to eliminate it, etc. and ones who adopt a more passively neutral stance on religion.

i dislike the former, Nietszche fits into that category - the latter I have way less trouble with.

quote: Buddhists or Taoists don't believe in a god either.

Ah, but they are far more tolerant (ie. Ghandi, the Dalai Lama). And Taoists/Buddhists have their own deities, and Jade Emperors, don't you forget. Of course I don't support it, but that doesn't mean I can't be understanding of their view, sympathise with them if one of them gets persecuted.

If I have a Buddhist friend who fell in a pit and got a severe abrasion, I would be sympathetic and call the hospital. If the friend were Muslim, I would do the same. If someone is being oppressed, would I not disapprove of their oppressor?

	29-09-2004 23:41									#220
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I don't know of too many atheists that go out and chop people's heads off in the name of god.

quote: What is this? Sympathy is hardly jihad. Even God rules we should be empathic and sympathetic to our fellow brothers and sisters, and to sinners - this does not mean condonement. If we see someone who has sinned, If I a Christian, go over to a Muslim friend's house, I would be polite and respectful, adopt proper Muslim table manners at her house, etc. but that does not mean I automatically become a Muslim. If a rehab official counsels a criminal, he or she can be empathic or sympathetic to say, the bad family environment, but not necessarily support such actions. He or she then could say, raise up an issue in the city board, for example, to reduce unemployment to reduce a crime issue, using his or her experience as evidence.

You're talking to an atheist who has absolutely no respect for religion unless it doesn't impose itself on others or it doesn't hurt people. Islam does both to the extreme. There were people like you in this country before 9/11 who all they wanted to do was see the other side and lets understand the terrorists. I'm glad those people have been silenced.

quote: Empirical evidence? Do you live in a country with substiantial Muslim population (12% or more?)....if you don't have some form of empirical evidence, or have no such experience in dealing with entire Muslim populations, you don't have the authority to claim anything about Muslim demographics.

If they were so widespread we wouldn't have widespread terrorism now would we? Do you see Nazi's running around terrorizing the world? No. Because they're few and far between. Do you see moderate muslims out in force giving up terrorist positions and kicking them out of their houses? No.

quote: Oh look! The school bully who goes "scaredy-cat!" Guerilla tactics are the tactics of the strong and smart. Attacks on civilians are another thing. Do you think they have any other choice to make their mark? Its a bloody act of war. Did you see what the US did to Dresden? Vietnam....? The Jihad against the western world has yet to kill millions of civilians - but the US has already exceeded four million.

For someone demanding evidence all the time you make some very outlandish claims. Why don't you substantiate this 4 million that we willingly slaughtered and then chanted allah is great as we cut off their heads.

quote: You contradict yourself, not explicitly so, but in attitude. You describe the horror of Islam and question why one would be patient with the religion at all, then proudly assert that Islam isn't a threat to the nation?

Islam will never wipe out the USA, but it will hurt our way of life and make life difficult. Everytime I see someone beheaded and then people cheering it just pushes me that much closer to calling for all out war against Islam. Nothing is more disgusting than killing in the name of religion considering that the god you are killing for is nothing more than a figment of your imagination.

quote: Reagan anyone? Oh don't forget, President Jackson and his massacres of Native Americans.

Reagan? You must be joking. I don't think I've ever seen someone more outlandish than you. And if you want to compare yourself to early 1800s America, be my guest. That's basically saying you are 200 years behind the times.

And Singapore compared to the US isn't even close economically. No southeast Asia nation is. And if Singapore is rich for a Muslim country that isn't saying much now is it?

	29-09-2004 23:45									#221
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quote: If someone is being oppressed, would I not disapprove of their oppressor?

Try walking into Iran and professing your religion is christianity then you can see what oppression really is. Last I checked in the US we allow muslims and anyone else to practice religion freely. In return they hide in their mosks and plot to destroy the US. Our problem is we're too nice. We go around trying to help people and we just end up getting our hand burned. Better to just wipe the offenders out and focus on our own nation. If you want to attack the US, expect to have your land leveled and turned into a parking lot. That should be our new foreign policy.

	29-09-2004 23:47									#222
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quote: And Singapore compared to the US isn't even close economically.

Yeah?

Let me see this critical world: PER CAPITA.

I just wanted to mention this first, I'll rebut the rest later.

	29-09-2004 23:47									#223
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I'm sure I don't agree with ML, but if no one ever practiced Islam again. I would be very happy, and so would a lot of people. The world would be much better off.

	30-09-2004 00:01									#224
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I'd be happier if they literally practiced 'Islam'.

You can still be a evil homicidal-cum-suicidal ****er even without religion.

	30-09-2004 00:03									#225
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I wouldn't miss any of the religions, honestly, but ML just seems to have a hardon for Islam in the particular.

-Arrian

	30-09-2004 00:03									#226
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quote: Why don't you substantiate this 4 million that we willingly slaughtered and then chanted allah is great as we cut off their heads.

Well, the US forces didn't chant "Allah is Great" - but lets see, thousands in Kosovo, a large bulk, a one to two million in Vietnam, 60,000 in Nicaragua, 13,000 in Chile, oh yes, Somalia: US forces tried to "intervene" in 1993 to take control of the warlord situation, and ended up massacring thousands, hundreds of thousands in Dresden, countless incidents such as these.

quote: Reagan? You must be joking. I don't think I've ever seen someone more outlandish than you.

Reagan is a terrible hypocrite. He was one of the major proponents of the contra terrorist operation in Nicaragua. Not to mention, he continued to defy the Congress after it ruled it illegal to continue to order such actions in Nicaragua.

What do you mean by "outlandish"? Is it because it dissents to the common view?

quote: I don't know of too many atheists that go out and chop people's heads off in the name of god.

Terribly ignorant, aren't you? A lot of athiest extremist groups do that...just not in the name of God.

Of course athiests wouldn't chop people's heads off in the name of God - they're athiests. And they don't chop, they just gun down people.

quote: If they were so widespread we wouldn't have widespread terrorism now would we? Do you see Nazi's running around terrorizing the world? No. Because they're few and far between. Do you see moderate muslims out in force giving up terrorist positions and kicking them out of their houses? No.

If anti-war protestors were so widespread (they number millions, London, etc.) they would stop the Iraq war. Nice logic there. Nazis aren't few and far between...ie. look at stormfront.org, quite an active and huge organisation, Neo-Nazism has a huge membership....

Why would moderate Muslims kick people out of their houses? They are moderate. They don't resort to violence. They campaign with words. You contradict yourself. You are insensitive - when you try to make analogies to other views, you get them all wrong.

Athiests wouldn't chop people's heads off in the name of God. Moderate Muslims aren't radical. Moderate people aren't extremist. Kicking people out of houses is an extremist and radical thing to do. I mean if they were landlords, thats another thing. Many moderates are normal people - how would they fight against the radicals effectively?

Only with their voice. Non-violent revolution. You know, Ghandi didn't win independence with non-violent revolution easily as well, it took years.

quote: Islam does both to the extreme. There were people like you in this country before 9/11 who all they wanted to do was see the other side and lets understand the terrorists. I'm glad those people have been silenced.

I have no respect for Reagan or the US. I'm glad those soldiers in Iraq have been silenced. I

(actually I am not, but thats just an eye for an eye reply - just making you see your lack of logic)

quote: Islam will never wipe out the USA, but it will hurt our way of life and make life difficult. Everytime I see someone beheaded and then people cheering it just pushes me that much closer to calling for all out war against Islam. Nothing is more disgusting than killing in the name of religion considering that the god you are killing for is nothing more than a figment of your imagination.

Everytime I see people abuse morphine and sleeping pills and alcohol, I feel like declaring war against it by banning it. Everytime I see people abusing fats and salts, I feel like banning it. In fact, lets ban carbohydrates! Lets declare war against the great menace of obesity that plagues more than half of the American population!

quote: Islam will never wipe out the USA

[hitler]THE JEW WILL NEVER WIPE OUT THE SUPERIORITY OF THE ARYAN RACE! WE WILL PREVAIL! WHY SHOULD WE LET THEM HURT THE GLORY OF THE GREATER GERMANY AND THE GERMAN REICH?[/hitler]

Or, lets say, Kai-Shek who thought he had finally crushed Mao when he sent him packing to Manchuria.

Or the Emperior Shi-Huangdi who believed his empire would last for 10,000 generations.

More nationalism, we need.

Tell me, how do you know that Islam is just a major pain to the standard of living, and will not dethrone the US? Isn't that what the mighty Roman Empire believed about the "barbarians"?

	30-09-2004 00:04									#227
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Natalinasmpf,

I wasn't aware of U.S. military intervention in Sudan in 1993. I *do* recall intervention elsewhere in Africa at that time, and a big 'ole mess that resulted in a withdrawl. Are you perhaps mixing Sudan up with Somalia?

-Arrian

	30-09-2004 00:08									#228
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quote: Are you perhaps mixing Sudan up with Somalia?

Oops! I am.

Sorry for the mistake, a slip there.

	30-09-2004 00:09									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I wouldn't miss any of the religions, honestly, but ML just seems to have a hardon for Islam in the particular. -Arrian

Islam is the only one that I really have a problem with. I don't like christians either, but they seem to be behaving themselves at the moment.

	30-09-2004 00:11									#230
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: Are you perhaps mixing Sudan up with Somalia? Oops! I am. Sorry for the mistake, a slip there.

No problemo. Lots of messed up countries in Africa, lots of U.S. interventions... mistakes will happen.

-Arrian

	30-09-2004 00:13									#231
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quote: Islam is the only one that I really have a problem with. I don't like christians either, but they seem to be behaving themselves at the moment.

You probably only have a problem with it because its the current problem.

If I asked you, which would be a greater threat, tubercolosis, smallpox, cholera or AIDS, you'd probably say AIDS, because we've successfully fought off tubercolosis and cholera epidemics and now we can deal better with it. Smallpox has been confined to but a few labs. We downplay past events - human nature.

But its not religion being the root of the problems. Any cause can be hijacked. Food and drugs can be abused. Weapons for hunting can turn into homicide killers. Does that mean we should ban or declare war against it? No.

Oh...don't forget how the US intervened in Nicaragua and Chile..failures in Iraq..it seems that "US foreign actions campaigning for democracy that are beneficial are few and far between". I know! Lets declare war against democracy!

That is the logic ML is using.

	30-09-2004 00:13									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Islam is the only one that I really have a problem with. I don't like christians either, but they seem to be behaving themselves at the moment.

Really? Consider who is currently running our country, Kid (hint: wackjob fundy "born again" Christian).

-Arrian, devil's advocate

"Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name..."

	30-09-2004 00:19									#233
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I don't think GWB is a real fundy, he's just a puppet of his neo-conservative party mostly - no right-thinking man who had a real cause would make such flip flops and contradictions and mistakes in his speech. Such mistakes only happen when what you say isn't what you truly believe. He's just been instructed to appeal to the conservative side of the US.

	30-09-2004 00:31									#234
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Economic -7.75
Social -5.44

Got a bit more free 'n' easy I see. Expected it too.

	30-09-2004 00:32									#235
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The man is definitely a born-again, which means he's pretty hardcore. The converts are always the worst most zealous.

That doesn't mean he can't be a puppet too. Look, to a certain extent all U.S. Presidents are figureheads. Bush happens to be a figurehead who has real problems with public speech and basic logic.

-Arrian

Last edited by Arrian on 30-09-2004 at 00:45

	30-09-2004 01:23									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf But its not religion being the root of the problems. Any cause can be hijacked. Food and drugs can be abused. Weapons for hunting can turn into homicide killers. Does that mean we should ban or declare war against it? No.

I don't think religion is hijacked. I think it's bad for people, and for the world. I don't bother to differentiate between fundamentalists and moderates. It doesn't matter to me. I have no problem with you having the freedom to practice your religion, even though it doesn't benefit me directly, because I don't care to practice religion, but when your religion is causing violence then of course I have a problem with it.

	30-09-2004 01:26									#237
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quote: but when your religion is causing violence then of course I have a problem with it.

By proceeding to blanket the entire religion as a whole?

	30-09-2004 01:26									#238
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I'm still the commie champ!!!

	30-09-2004 01:26									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Really? Consider who is currently running our country, Kid (hint: wackjob fundy "born again" Christian). -Arrian, devil's advocate "Pleased to meet you, hope you guessed my name..."

Bush being a christian doesn't bother me. I don't paticularly care for christians in general, because most of them that I have met are real jerks, but some of them are Ok, even if their views are wacked. My problem with Bush is that he hates the poor, and I really believe that, even though he pretends differently.

	30-09-2004 01:29									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: but when your religion is causing violence then of course I have a problem with it. By proceeding to blanket the entire religion as a whole?

Like I said, I don't like religion. I have no problem with you practicing it, except where there are peoples lives and such on the line, but if you can't practice your religion, it's really no big deal to me. Freedom to practice religion is not very important to me.