28-09-2004 14:10									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin This is becoming a discouraging pattern.

What is?

That someone is deliberately trying to **** things up in Iraq to score a few "points"?

	28-09-2004 14:10									#32
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Never mind the rights and wrongs, never mind who gets hurt, never mind the suffering caused, if it's done by America, Drake approved .

	28-09-2004 14:12									#33
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What wrong thing happened? Point it out.

	28-09-2004 14:15									#34
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He's not interested in the facts, MM. He just wanted to take a swipe at his betters...

	28-09-2004 14:22									#35
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quote: What wrong thing happened? Point it out.

Intelligence services intent was to rig the election. Whether or not it did it is irrelevant, though obviously it would be compounded if they had gone through with it. The demonstration of intent by people with such power is rather concerning in my opinion. Just imagine how you'd feel if someone who didn't like you discovered your address and bought a high-powered hunting rifle?

Just the fact that the CIA are thinking along these lines makes one question the integrity of modern "democratic" institutions, as well as the ability of the USA to recognise self-determination, even though that may not be in their own self-interest that is what they have promised the Iraqis, and surely in principle the rest of the world.

quote: He's not interested in the facts, MM. He just wanted to take a swipe at his betters...

Betters? I rank you with Park Avenue and Fez!!

	28-09-2004 14:30									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Intelligence services intent was to rig the election. Whether or not it did it is irrelevant, though obviously it would be compounded if they had gone through with it. The demonstration of intent by people with such power is rather concerning in my opinion. Just imagine how you'd feel if someone who didn't like you discovered your address and bought a high-powered hunting rifle? Just the fact that the CIA are thinking along these lines makes one question the integrity of modern "democratic" institutions, as well as the ability of the USA to recognise self-determination, even though that may not be in their own self-interest that is what they have promised the Iraqis, and surely in principle the rest of the world.

It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

Your hunting rifle analogy is irrelevent.

quote: Betters? I rank you with Park Avenue and Fez!!

You have disarmed yourself with vodka.

	28-09-2004 14:35									#37
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quote: If we do continue to influence elections it will be similar to Egypt. Not terrible; but certainly not worth 1000 American and who knows how many Iraqi lives.

Egypt is one of the reasons we're in this mess, we've been supporting a dictatorship there and now we're going to support a "democracy" until enough people decide they don't want our crooks in charge of their country.

quote: I would force you to support a certain candidate

Which is how Jefferson defined tyranny. I wonder if the Iraqis will compel their fellow citizens to support certain candidates, sounds like something the terrorists would do. Donations for Yusef Islam, donations PLEASE

quote: When is the last time we punished someone.

Who's the latest author to have served in the Bush administration?

quote: Hell, that person in Bush admin wasn't even punished for leaking the name of a CIA operative. But I don't feel, that proposing to fund certain candidates is immoral.

It is immoral, not only are you doing it with other people's money, the result will another mess that will cost lives.

quote: I can't support many of the past actions of the CIA. But I feel it's justifiable in this case. As long as it was only funding campaigns and not miscounting votes, blocking electors etc.

And if the CIA et al win? How many elections do we plan on buying? It doesn't matter if this government creates the Constitution, it'll be ignored once "the legitimate" representatives of the people get elected. Imperative to this endeavor are the stakes Iraqis have in this system... We start removing those stakes when we fund pro-US candidates...

quote: I for one don't trust the Iraqi's to setup their own constitution.

And that's what is driving this, a distrust of the Iraqi people. We have to trust them, we have no choice or we will see more bloodshed in Iraq.

	28-09-2004 14:37									#38
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quote: It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

Where did I claim that the CIA was worse than any other intelligence agency? They may say they make use of intelligence but historically, very little wisdom. It just so happens that the CIA worries me because of its size and power, it's ability to carry out these plans. And do you honestly think that the civilian administration has total control over the CIA, and that in any way would affect their "under the counter" influence? *Whaleboy glances over at Vietnam*.

quote: Your hunting rifle analogy is irrelevent.

Hardly. While it is legitimate on paper such an action gives the beholder what I term the "potentiality of choice" (which differs from freedom). The actuality of that potential results in imposition, and in the case of a governmental organisation, a tyranny would ensue. Surely that is painfully obvious to you?

quote: You have disarmed yourself with vodka.

I don't debate when drunk. You'll note my sobriety this morning .

	28-09-2004 14:43									#39
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* Comrade Tassadar feels tempted to "accidently" reveal the PM exchange with Drake...

	28-09-2004 14:49									#40
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quote: It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet

We make battle plans to better our defense and that of our friends - to kill anyone trying to kill us. Not the kind of message you want to send to the people you've just liberated... "We liberated you, and now we will corrupt your system because we make battle plans to wage war anywhere and everywhere"...

	28-09-2004 14:51									#41
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Which is why it was so fragging stupid to reveal this.

	28-09-2004 14:58									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Where did I claim that the CIA was worse than any other intelligence agency? They may say they make use of intelligence but historically, very little wisdom. It just so happens that the CIA worries me because of its size and power, it's ability to carry out these plans. And do you honestly think that the civilian administration has total control over the CIA, and that in any way would affect their "under the counter" influence? *Whaleboy glances over at Vietnam*.

The CIA ain't what it used to be, as was quite painfully shown during the 911 commision hearings. I never said you implied it was worse, I said you thinking it was somehow wrong made no sense.

quote: Hardly. While it is legitimate on paper such an action gives the beholder what I term the "potentiality of choice" (which differs from freedom). The actuality of that potential results in imposition, and in the case of a governmental organisation, a tyranny would ensue. Surely that is painfully obvious to you?

Ah -- so you agree with me that this should never have been disclosed, correct?

quote: I don't debate when drunk. You'll note my sobriety this morning .

I haven't yet.

	28-09-2004 15:01									#43
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

That would be like Pentagon going to congress and try to implement attack plans on Canada or Mexico, just because they have such plans. If you present a plan to congress, you want it implemented, otherwise you would keep it hidden in your drawer, just in case it ever became feasible.

	28-09-2004 15:03									#44
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True.

	28-09-2004 15:09									#45
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Actually, it's closer to the Administration going to Congress with the Pentagon's plans for attacking Iran -- because that's what they are trying to counter in this case.

It dosen't change the fact that they did everything the way they were supposed to, and that this should never have seen the light of day -- exactly because people would use this to the detriment of our efforts in Iraq.

	28-09-2004 15:11									#46
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Seeing as how Sistani has pointed out, the elections are going to be from candidate lists picked by the central gov't, composed of members from the mostly exile parties we handed power over to, I'm not sure who the Iranians are going to give covert support to. SCIRI, and to a lesser extent, Da'wa seem to be the most likely candidates, but these are parties that we've given large amounts of power to and have had some falling outs with Tehran anyways. It'd be pretty damn idiotic to bankroll opponents of SCIRI after we've lavished all this power on them. Not just evil, but incredibly, absolutely inept. The other possibility, of course, is that they're making up the Iran story and just wanted to buy themselves an election. Since this gov't has had its fair share of both total malevolence and total incompetence, I'm not sure which one it is.

	28-09-2004 15:13									#47
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quote: Which is how Jefferson defined tyranny. I wonder if the Iraqis will compel their fellow citizens to support certain candidates, sounds like something the terrorists would do. Donations for Yusef Islam, donations PLEASE

I was saying that. It's ok for US to fund an Iraqi candidate. Oh and you bet Iraqis will compel their fellow citizens to vote a certain way.

quote: Who's the latest author to have served in the Bush administration?

Quit being vague dammit. I take my news in spurts, I don't pay attention for weeks at a time. I can miss details. I think I know who you mean but the name eludes me.

quote: the result will another mess that will cost lives.

Obviously I disagree and I don't care about the first part.

quote: It doesn't matter if this government creates the Constitution, it'll be ignored once "the legitimate" representatives of the people get elected.

The government would still be viewed as legitimate. They would have still been voted in by the Iraqis. Just because our representitives take donations and are influence by campaign contributions doesn't make them illegitimate.

quote: Imperative to this endeavor are the stakes Iraqis have in this system... We start removing those stakes when we fund pro-US candidates...

They still have a stake, we would just be influencing them.

quote: And that's what is driving this, a distrust of the Iraqi people. We have to trust them.

In time but people without jobs, little food, bullets whizzing by and super crappy conditions aren't rational. If we give money to our candidates they can go out and do soup kitchens and gun buy backs

There will definitely be irregualarities in the upcoming elections. Most will be caused by Iraqi's themselves. And there definitely will be shia majority

	28-09-2004 15:23									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard The government would still be viewed as legitimate. They would have still been voted in by the Iraqis. Just because our representitives take donations and are influence by campaign contributions doesn't make them illegitimate.

No. It makes them corrupt at best. Corrupt US stooges, I am sure the Iraqis would love this government to death, literally.

By the way, how would the US perceive it, if a foreign power tried to influence their elections by ... ummm ... well directed "donations"?

	28-09-2004 15:28									#49
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We wouldn't like it at all -- which goes back to what I'm saying.

This cannot harm Bush, except by making the Iraq situation more difficult.

This release can only harm the nation.

	28-09-2004 15:29									#50
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quote: Betters? I rank you with Park Avenue and Fez!!

See? You're obviously deranged. Better, indeed...

	28-09-2004 15:32									#51
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No. Leaking this helps to deter this Admin (and any other) from doing more evil-retarded things like this. And it reminds others of our freedom of press that disinfects gov't abuse. The checks and balances that we have in our system are the only thing that make this gov't at all credible.

	28-09-2004 15:36									#52
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quote: And it reminds others of our freedom of press that disinfects gov't abuse.

What government abuse, in this case?

	28-09-2004 15:37									#53
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Rigging elections.

	28-09-2004 15:39									#54
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No one rigged any election...

	28-09-2004 15:41									#55
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That's what this plan is, whatever euphemism you might prefer to use.

	28-09-2004 15:42									#56
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It is sad, though, that so many Polytubbies' problems with this is not that the US is thwarting democracy and ****ing up Iraq, but that someone had the gall to leak to press that the US is thwarting democracy and ****ing up Iraq. What a bunch of Stalinists.

	28-09-2004 15:48									#57
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quote: That's what this plan is

Since when does having a plan to do something (which is debateable, in this case) equal actually doing it?

	28-09-2004 15:53									#58
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Having plans is not wrong. As TMM pointed out, that's what the CIA is supposed to do. But to bring them actively to the Congress is actually an attempt to do it. And in most crimes the attempt alone is already liable to persecution.

	28-09-2004 15:53									#59
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Leaking it before the undermining of democracy happens seems to me a better way to prevent this undermining of democracy, than leaking after it already happens.

	28-09-2004 15:59									#60
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It was never going to happen, Einstein. Read the article...