28-09-2004 16:04									#61
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Personally I don't buy this bullshit.

The US is practically running Iraq right now and they have a multitude of ways to affect the outcome of any coming elections. Barring sattelite TV, they decide what the media in Iraq will say. They will decide which parts of the country are "safe enough" to hold elections. They will decide which of the candidates are "legal" to participate. Their admiistration and the subcontractors they totally control are the main employers in Iraq and thus they have the power to coerce a large numbe rof people to vote "accordingly". Plus, who the hell in Iraq is going to check where each candidate gets their funds from?

So why need a covert CIA operation in order to just provide funding to a couple of candidates? And how come this is the first time such a plan is disclosed to the public? Does this mean that in past elections in foreign countries (in Venezuela f.e.) the CIA did not make any plans to rig the elections? How come no such plans were ever disclosed? Does this mean that in that and in many other cases where it is concievable, the CIA actually implemented such plans and that's why nothing was disclosed? From an intelligence point of view, such disclosures are catastrophically bad practice, so they wouldn't happen unless another purpose would be served.

IMO, that purpose is just a sham effort to lead the public opinion (chiefly in the USA, since nobody in Iraq or the rest of the world is THAT daft) away from the evident fact that no democratic elections can be held in Iraq, as long as the USA is occupying the country. CIA or no CIA, the elections will be rigged, otherwise, the occupation cannot be continued.

	28-09-2004 16:05									#62
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quote: It was never going to happen, Einstein. Read the article...

Only because someone leaked it to Pelosi, demonstrating my point (and "scaled back" isn't the same thing as cancelled, Feynman).

quote: Pelosi had strong words with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in a phone call about the issue. [...] A senior U.S. official hinted that, under pressure from the Hill, the Administration scaled back its original plans.

And,

	28-09-2004 16:10									#63
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There you go again...

No one leaked it to Pelosi. She found out about it when they sent the idea to Capitol Hill for review. Of course, you've never been one to let the facts stand between you and a quality pwning by me.

	28-09-2004 16:17									#64
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Well, it's early, I misread, big deal. In any case, the source indicated the program was scaled back, not necessarily eliminated. So, I'm afraid you'd already pwned yourself.

And it's still good that the source leaked this to the press, to make sure the Bush Admin doesn't implement this plan at all.

	28-09-2004 16:19									#65
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If it was questionable to refer to it as a rigging of the election in the first place and has now been scaled back to not include covert action, what exactly are you *****ing about?

	28-09-2004 16:22									#66
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It wasn't questionable to refer to it as such, and it's still there (overt hijacking of democracy is still bad) if the source is to be believed. I don't see what you're *****ing about.

	28-09-2004 16:24									#67
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I'm *****ing about someone leaking classified information, for no good reason, that damages American efforts in Iraq.

	28-09-2004 16:27									#68
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By legitimate. I meant legitimate enough not to totally disregard the constitution they setup.

About foreign interests contributing to campaigns. They have legitimate interests in what the US does. So why shouldn't they contribute to campaigns? All of that is a joke.

Of course we'd hate it. Remember the stink with Clinton and the Chinese.

But if the US had spent the last 30 years under a dictator, there was a threat of southern Republicans setting up a theocracy, because they were the majority. There was a 30% unemployment and a massive insurgency problem. I'd be more concerned with my safety and employment than whether or not some other country had undue influence.

I'm not saying that the Iraqi's don't care if we have undue influence. They do. The analogy is terrible.

Axi makes a good point aside from his conspiracy implications. The US will strongly influence this election.

	28-09-2004 16:29									#69
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quote: I'm *****ing about someone leaking classified information, for no good reason, that damages American efforts in Iraq.

Eh? There's a perfectly good reason for this info to be leaked - to prevent the gov't from implementing such a plan. I'm betting that Pelosi went to the press with this info herself to prevent the Bush Admin from implementing it. It's her leverage, since there isn't much else that she can do.

	28-09-2004 16:34									#70
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The last Iraqi gov't that was seen as a puppet of foreigners (the Brits) was PM Nuri al-Said's, and his corpse was dragged through the streets in a revolution.

	28-09-2004 16:36									#71
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quote: There's a perfectly good reason for this info to be leaked - to prevent the gov't from implementing such a plan.

To keep the Government from implementing a plan that they have already decided not to implement?



Moving away from fantasy-land, the most obvious motive for the leak is to hurt Bush's electoral chances. As such, Pelosi might well be behind it, but I would put my money on someone associated with the Kerry campaign. We'll probably never know who committed this act, though...

	28-09-2004 16:41									#72
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As I said, this is Pelosi's guarantee that this doesn't happen if Shrub wins the election. This is basically the only thing that stops him from changing his mind on 11/3.

	28-09-2004 16:48									#73
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I would have been disappointed with the CIA if they had not come up with this plan.

I would be disappointed if they didn't come up with other plans as well.

I would be disappointed if the Admin and Congress had proceeded.

It looks to me that everything happened as it should...with the exception of illegal leaking of classified information.

	28-09-2004 16:49									#74
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The Admin tried to take the plan to Congress, and they objected strongly. What the Admin did was not what it should have done.

	28-09-2004 16:52									#75
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I would have been disappointed with the CIA if they had not come up with this plan. I would be disappointed if they didn't come up with other plans as well. I would be disappointed if the Admin and Congress had proceeded. It looks to me that everything happened as it should...with the exception of illegal leaking of classified information.

	28-09-2004 16:53									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The Admin tried to take the plan to Congress, and they objected strongly. What the Admin did was not what it should have done.

Are you saying that they should NOT have consulted Congress on information supplied by the CIA?

I would imagine that there were probably other CIA info and plans discussed...they just weren't leaked.

I think it is great that the Admin consulted Congress on this issue. Far better than making a solo decision. In fact, I applaud this as an excellent sign of government!

	28-09-2004 17:00									#77
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The Administration was planning on hijacking the Iraqi elections. That is what they wanted to do. It was only Pelosi et al.'s objections that stopped them. The checks and balances worked, but that doesn't mean that the Admin was acting responsibly.

A responsible Admin wouldn't have seriously considered such a vile act, much less proposed it to Congress.

	28-09-2004 17:09									#78
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What the Mad Monk said.

	28-09-2004 17:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Rigging elections for democracy Democracy

Comarade Tassadar

	28-09-2004 17:28									#80
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Rigging elections for Comrade Tassader.

	28-09-2004 17:29									#81
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Rigging elections for Ted Striker

	28-09-2004 17:31									#82
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Ted Striker

	28-09-2004 17:39									#83
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You can't rig an election for democracy. ARGH!!! How can you even say that.

	28-09-2004 17:40									#84
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH You can't rig an election for democracy. ARGH!!! How can you even say that.

Saddam lover!

	28-09-2004 17:46									#85
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Yawn.

The bigger issue when it comes to the legitimacy of the election is this attempt by the exile parties to create on giant candidate list including all 6 parties, as their way to ensure for all of them some power.

Imagine going to the polls in the US and seeing one united Republican and Democratic slate-heck, even the Greens and Independents in the slate as well, with the only people not running in the lsate being the liberterians, socialists and some natural science party... yeah, that will be some democratic choice

The admin. should be fighting that plan.

	28-09-2004 17:47									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Saddam lover!

Saddam was great at rigging elections. He's still there if they need a hand.

	28-09-2004 17:52									#87
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Typical leftist comment. In a story that states that Iran is trying to influence the elections and that CIA was considering countering that, the leftist condemns whom? Iran? No. They condemn:

The United States of America.

	28-09-2004 17:54									#88
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Thanks Ned, our dose of the Nedaverse was missing

	28-09-2004 17:56									#89
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Thanks Ned, our dose of the Nedaverse was missing

You're very welcome, GePap.

	28-09-2004 19:38									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Well, it's early, I misread, big deal. In any case, the source indicated the program was scaled back, not necessarily eliminated. So, I'm afraid you'd already pwned yourself. And it's still good that the source leaked this to the press, to make sure the Bush Admin doesn't implement this plan at all.

Right, so instead, everyone will believe this is happening, the insurgency will be strengthened, and more of our soldiers will die.