28-09-2004 10:53									#1
	The CIA's Attempt to Rig the Iraqi Elections Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/a...-702122,00.html

quote: President Bush and interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi insisted last week that Iraq would go ahead with elections scheduled for January, despite continuing violence. But U.S. officials tell TIME that the Bush team ran into trouble with another plan involving those elections — a secret "finding" written several months ago proposing a covert CIA operation to aid candidates favored by Washington. A source says the idea was to help such candidates — whose opponents might be receiving covert backing from other countries, like Iran — but not necessarily to go so far as to rig the elections. But lawmakers from both parties raised questions about the idea when it was sent to Capitol Hill. In particular, House minority leader Nancy Pelosi "came unglued" when she learned about what a source described as a plan for "the CIA to put an operation in place to affect the outcome of the elections." Pelosi had strong words with National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice in a phone call about the issue. Rice spokesman Sean McCormack says, "I cannot in any way comment on classified matters, the existence or nonexistence of findings." But, McCormack says, "there have been and continue to be concerns about efforts by outsiders to influence the outcome of the Iraqi elections, including money flowing from Iran. This raises concerns about whether there will be a level playing field for the election. This situation has posed difficult dilemmas about what action, if any, the U.S. should take in response. In the final analysis, we have adopted a policy that we will not try to influence the outcome of the upcoming Iraqi election by covertly helping individual candidates for office." A senior U.S. official hinted that, under pressure from the Hill, the Administration scaled back its original plans. "This was a tough call. We went back and forth on it in the U.S. government. We consulted the Hill on this question ... Our embassy in Baghdad will run a number of overt programs to support the democratic electoral process," as the U.S. does elsewhere in the world.

Great, this is just the PR we need. Yeah, the CIA was just trying to counter the other outside funding, not rig the election in January with pro-US representatives.

Oy... what a total mess!

	28-09-2004 11:10									#2
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I would pay good money to have a ring-side seat to witness a Congress-person coming "unglued" in a private conversation with a high-level member of the Bush Administration...

	28-09-2004 11:11									#3
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I'm sure if I was in Congress and this came down the pike, I'd be pretty unglued myself.

	28-09-2004 11:13									#4
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I'll bring the foam hats if you buy the refreshments.

	28-09-2004 11:14									#5
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SOP

We've "influenced" elections all over the world, why stop now? And if our candidates win, there will probably be renewed violence as more and more people reject the government with maybe a civil war looming - sound like the early stages in Vietnam? That's the worst case scenario, the best is a moderately anti-American government (or more friendly) comes to power and it commands enough respect from Iraqis to gain support.

Just divide the place up, damnit.

	28-09-2004 11:16									#6
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Don't worry, Imran. Dubya will always do what's in Iraq's best interest. Thank God the Republicans are in power to look after things !

	28-09-2004 11:16									#7
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I don't have a problem with this. Iraq is better off with pro-American candidates than pro-Iranian. America has a viable interest in Iraq, so it isn't that different from a company donating money to a political candidate. The PR stinks. We should have been more discreet. I would have funnelled the money through contractors. I would have denied it

Isn't whoever leaked the classified information guilty of a felony?

	28-09-2004 11:17									#8
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Rigging elections is perfectly fine, if it helps to bring democracy to the people of Iraq.

	28-09-2004 11:18									#9
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Rigging elections for democracy
Democracy

	28-09-2004 11:19									#10
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We aren't rigging elections, were donating to certain campaigns.

	28-09-2004 11:21									#11
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Yes yes, of course

Donating to certain campaigns (!) for democracy
Democracy

	28-09-2004 11:23									#12
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CIA
NSA
RIAA
Democracy

	28-09-2004 11:31									#13
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Good to see the CIA trying to get back to its old, effective self.

	28-09-2004 11:32									#14
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*Golf Clap*

Administrations from both parties have been doing this sort of thing for decades, and often without the advice and consent of Congress, so Pelosi's reaction seems a little disingenuous. I wonder who released this secret information, which will certainly damage our efforts in Iraq, a mere month before our own elections.

	28-09-2004 11:33									#15
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quote: I wonder who released this secret information, which will certainly damage our efforts in Iraq, a mere month before our own elections.

I do, too. That's the real issue, here. This information should have never seen the light of day.

	28-09-2004 11:35									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Rigging elections for democracy Democracy

	28-09-2004 12:14									#17
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Jolly good show

	28-09-2004 12:31									#18
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quote: I don't have a problem with this. Iraq is better off with pro-American candidates than pro-Iranian.

Not if you're Iranian, imagine Muslims trying to "create" what looks like a launching pad for invasion on our doorstep and you'll see why Iran has a greater interest in the outcome of elections. We'll be there for decades buying political office in Iraq... The Framer's of the Constitution would be rolling in their graves if they knew we were being forced to support the campaigns of candidates for office in a foreign country.

quote: America has a viable interest in Iraq, so it isn't that different from a company donating money to a political candidate. The PR stinks. We should have been more discreet. I would have funnelled the money through contractors. I would have denied it

So force me to support the campaigns of Iraqi politicians (and expect a good outcome) and then lie about it?

quote: Isn't whoever leaked the classified information guilty of a felony?

Or deserving of some award? This is why we keep getting into these messes, the government "classifies" material the American people need to make informed decisions about the direction of the country. Do you think a majority of voters would have agreed to a continued policy of pissing off Arabs? We aren't told, we don't wanna know, and when we get hit back the politicians lie about that too. We didn't get hit because we've been screwing around over there for decades, we got hit because we are "free".

Let 'em become pro-Iran, I want them to become pro-Iran... Anything less would appear bogus and induce more instability. They will still be the people who suffered for decades under Saddam and who are now "free" to elect a government that won't butcher them for being human. I believe most Iraqis are grateful and once their sentiment becomes expressed through a "legitimate" (pro-Iran) government we won't have to worry about Iraq as a base for terrorists... But that's what I would have expected in Afghanistan......... nevermind...

	28-09-2004 12:38									#19
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Imran, don't you know the rigging of elections is a necessity to any beacon of Democracy ?

	28-09-2004 12:41									#20
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Saddam said he wants to run

	28-09-2004 12:43									#21
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Berserker, read what happened again.

The CIA came up with a proposal, it was sent to Congress, they shot it down.

What is the story, here?

	28-09-2004 12:53									#22
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A minor inconvinence to be fixed soon, I'm sure

	28-09-2004 12:56									#23
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The CIA came up with a plan to influence another country's affaris, which is part of what they do.

They present the plan to the administration, who think it is good enough to show to Congressional leaders.

They show it to Congressional leaders, they don't try to hide it or do an end run.
(By the way, how often do you hear of any Administration showing this sort of thing to Congress?)

Congressional leaders, of both parties, give their (mostly negative) opinions, and the Administration tones it down accordingly, in cooperation with Congress.

Several months later, somebody "exposes" this non-issue.

There was no subversion of the process occured, it was all above board. There is no malfeasance here.

So, why?

	28-09-2004 13:09									#24
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Berserker:
If I was Iranian I would support them donating money to pro-Iranian candidates. Just because Iran has a greater interest in Iraq doesn't mean that the US doesn't have an interest. I would have supported covertly giving money to pro-American candidates. Yes, I believe that Iraqi's will be better off without an Iranian style theocracy. Of course, I think Kurdistan should be seperated (never going to happen).

About forcing you to support an Iraqi candidate, the government forces you support a lot of things through your taxes. So that is irrelevant. I was kind of joking about denying it, I would be terrible pr for any one.

Deserving of an award, sure but at the same time they broke a federal law. So they belong in jail. You can give them your award there.

I didn't support going into Iraq. But we are there, so I think we should attempt to modernize it, rather than cut and run leaving it to Iran. Of course to have an effective ME policy we need to scale back our support of Israel; otherwise Arabs will always view us as the enemy.

The Mad Monk is right (I actually missed that ), congress shot the idea down. The only thing releasing it does is A) Damage our efforts in Iraq -Bad B)Maybe damage Bush - The goal of the person who released it, probably. I don't like Bush; but the action is innapropriate.

	28-09-2004 13:18									#25
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quote: Berserker, read what happened again. The CIA came up with a proposal, it was sent to Congress, they shot it down. What is the story, here?

The story? U.S. TRIES TO SUBVERT DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!
It doesn't matter if it's true, we've already supplied evidence to the contrary.

quote: Our embassy in Baghdad will run a number of overt programs to support the democratic electoral process," as the U.S. does elsewhere in the world.

Yes...get out an elect people we don't like... We just have this nasty habit of ousting officeholders in weaker countries when they don't do what we want. This situation will worsen if a pro-American government "wins" the election... It must be Muslim through and through and we must rely on whatever good will from the Iraqi people we can salvage by leaving asap.

	28-09-2004 13:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk The CIA came up with a plan to influence another country's affaris, which is part of what they do. They present the plan to the administration, who think it is good enough to show to Congressional leaders. They show it to Congressional leaders, they don't try to hide it or do an end run. (By the way, how often do you hear of any Administration showing this sort of thing to Congress?) Congressional leaders, of both parties, give their (mostly negative) opinions, and the Administration tones it down accordingly, in cooperation with Congress. Several months later, somebody "exposes" this non-issue. There was no subversion of the process occured, it was all above board. There is no malfeasance here. So, why?

Exactly right. Nothing happened with the CIA plan, so it should never have been leaked. It's too bad we'll probably never find out who the POS who released this is...

	28-09-2004 13:32									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Berserker: If I was Iranian I would support them donating money to pro-Iranian candidates. Just because Iran has a greater interest in Iraq doesn't mean that the US doesn't have an interest.

Then we'll be there for decades bribing and buying politicians to counter Iran and that won't pass the smell test with most Iraqis.

quote: I would have supported covertly giving money to pro-American candidates. Yes, I believe that Iraqi's will be better off without an Iranian style theocracy.

It will be there own, one shaped by what happened under Saddam.

quote: About forcing you to support an Iraqi candidate, the government forces you support a lot of things through your taxes.

That doesn't make it right.

quote: Deserving of an award, sure but at the same time they broke a federal law. So they belong in jail. You can give them your award there.

Like I said, this is why we keep getting into these messes - we punish people who try to expose evidence of politicians screwing up morally. Keep the people ignorant and tell them they're free as terrorists blow up their buildings...

quote: I didn't support going into Iraq. But we are there, so I think we should attempt to modernize it, rather than cut and run leaving it to Iran. Of course to have an effective ME policy we need to scale back our support of Israel; otherwise Arabs will always view us as the enemy.

Modernise, yes, manipulate, no... We have to leave it to Iran because the majority of Iraqis have closer ties to Iran than any other country in the region. That doesn't mean they will become Iran II...

quote: The Mad Monk is right (I actually missed that ), congress shot the idea down. The only thing releasing it does is A) Damage our efforts in Iraq -Bad B)Maybe damage Bush - The goal of the person who released it, probably. I don't like Bush; but the action is innapropriate.

C'mon, this would be the first time we didn't stick our noses into an election of such import. The US fears Iran's influence and I think that shows the Bushies don't trust Iraqis to run their own country...

	28-09-2004 13:51									#28
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This is becoming a discouraging pattern.

	28-09-2004 13:54									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

They should just ship Jeb Bush, John Ellis and co over there. Election results rigged while u wait.

	28-09-2004 14:07									#30
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quote: Then we'll be there for decades bribing and buying politicians to counter Iran and that won't pass the smell test with most Iraqis.

I may be wrong about this, but I think the first elected government will setup the Iraqi constitution. So I'd like to see it secularily influence with minority protection etc. I don't have a lot of faith in the Iranian sponsored reps to do this.

After that I realize the Iraqi people will vote in reps who aren't going to be pro US. Any fairly elected Arabian govt. won't be pro-US. Which is fine, currently I feel our national interest coincides with humanitarian goals. Alot of it doesn't, but some does.

If we do continue to influence elections it will be similar to Egypt. Not terrible; but certainly not worth 1000 American and who knows how many Iraqi lives.

quote: About forcing you to support an Iraqi candidate, the government forces you support a lot of things through your taxes. That doesn't make it right.

I should have just said yes. I would force you to support a certain candidate

quote: Like I said, this is why we keep getting into these messes - we punish people who try to expose evidence of politicians screwing up morally.

When is the last time we punished someone. Hell, that person in Bush admin wasn't even punished for leaking the name of a CIA operative. But I don't feel, that proposing to fund certain candidates is immoral.

quote: C'mon, this would be the first time we didn't stick our noses into an election of such import.

I can't support many of the past actions of the CIA. But I feel it's justifiable in this case. As long as it was only funding campaigns and not miscounting votes, blocking electors etc.

I for one don't trust the Iraqi's to setup their own constitution.