30-09-2004 06:24									#31
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no matter what the topic is, you can always rest assured: it will always be blamed on $_OPPOSING_POLITICAL_VIEWPOINT_1 by adherents of $_OPPOSING_POLITICAL_VIEWPOINT_2!!!

	30-09-2004 06:25									#32
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quote: Diss, I live in a pretty safe country, no terrorism, no super high crime with free education and equal opportunity for every young person. The girls are pretty and I can **** up as bad as possible and I don't have to be afraid of going to prison for it. I guess the price to pay for all this is not to be the greatest country in the world

Don't you want to immigrate to the US?

	30-09-2004 06:26									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Now THAT is a debate we ought to have, as the OPPOSITE is true.

actually I don't think conservative economies create more poverty. Most people benefit greatyly from this. Including myself. But most poor are left out of the loop I admit. But you know what? I grew up poor, but now I'm not. It can be done.

	30-09-2004 06:27									#34
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quote: I actually used to live in Chicago, on the South side, when I went to school. I went to IIT. When it was warm, I kept my window open. There was not a night that I didn't hear the sound of gunfire echoing about the city. This gunfire obviously came from the numerous gangs that controlled the urban landscape, not from ordinary citizens shooting it out with their neighbors.

I live in Chicago now, on the South Side. I go to the University of Chicago, which, until recently, was one of the more dangerous areas in the city. Even now, when I walk back, drunk from the neighborhood pubs, I have not once been accosted, nor have I been mugged, nor have I ever heard gunfire or seen evidence of gang-related activity.

	30-09-2004 06:28									#35
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Anybody watched "Bowling for Columbine"?

	30-09-2004 06:28									#36
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It has been proven that increased punishment for crimes results in a decrease in crime. Instituting the death penalty has been proven to lower the murder rate. And who fights the death penalty and thinks criminals should be "rehabillitated" rather than punished? Tough one.

Ned is absolutely right. Poverty is actually more in liberal areas because welfare basically creates ghetto's. It doesn't motivate people to go out and find a job and in fact you aren't even allowed to own a car on welfare. But welfare is a nice bargaining chip in elections. Just go into a slum and tell them Republicans are going to take away welfare and education. The economics of liberals is to take from people who work and give to those who don't. All this does is burden the workign population and create no desire for those without jobs to seek them. That's the way of the Democrat.

	30-09-2004 06:30									#37
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quote: Anybody watched "Bowling for Columbine"?

Anyone ever been to one of the thousands of sites that debunks bowling for columbine and every other Michael Moore movie? In bowling for columbine images are actually spliced together. Doesn't get much more dishonest than that.

	30-09-2004 06:38									#38
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quote: in fact you aren't even allowed to own a car on welfare.

I call Bullshit.

Prove it.

	30-09-2004 06:40									#39
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quote: It has been proven that increased punishment for crimes results in a decrease in crime. Instituting the death penalty has been proven to lower the murder rate. And who fights the death penalty and thinks criminals should be "rehabillitated" rather than punished? Tough one.

it has? studies please. and explain to me why punishments in japan and skorea, which are often on par with those of the us, have lower crime rates? hell, what about europe? why do they have lower crime rates?

by the way, catholics technically fight the death penalty and think criminals can be rehabilitated, yet many to most are firmly in the conservative camp.

quote: Poverty is actually more in liberal areas because welfare basically creates ghetto's.

is it causality? or coincidence? liberal areas tend to be urban areas. urban areas tend to have more poverty.

in any case, you adorable conservative hack you, this is what i have to say to that:

quote: no matter what the topic is, you can always rest assured: it will always be blamed on $_OPPOSING_POLITICAL_VIEWPOINT_1 by adherents of $_OPPOSING_POLITICAL_VIEWPOINT_2!!!

	30-09-2004 06:42									#40
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Ok on second look it looks like the changes on the car ownership were changed in welfare reform in 2000 (at least in pennsylvania). When I heard about the car thing it was a good 6-8 years ago. Now it seems they are allowed to own a car but the state determines the maximum value of the car allowed. The fact still remains however that Democrats have always fought welfare reform and used it as a political tool.

	30-09-2004 06:51									#41
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Do you have any proof about the car thing (ie, the fact they weren't allowed to have one 6-8 years ago)?

	30-09-2004 06:54									#42
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quote: it has? studies please. and explain to me why punishments in japan and skorea, which are often on par with those of the us, have lower crime rates? hell, what about europe? why do they have lower crime rates? by the way, catholics technically fight the death penalty and think criminals can be rehabilitated, yet many to most are firmly in the conservative camp.

Probably because we have a far larger population.

http://www.truebluenz.orcon.net.nz/....html#Deterrent

	30-09-2004 06:55									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: I actually used to live in Chicago, on the South side, when I went to school. I went to IIT. When it was warm, I kept my window open. There was not a night that I didn't hear the sound of gunfire echoing about the city. This gunfire obviously came from the numerous gangs that controlled the urban landscape, not from ordinary citizens shooting it out with their neighbors. I live in Chicago now, on the South Side. I go to the University of Chicago, which, until recently, was one of the more dangerous areas in the city. Even now, when I walk back, drunk from the neighborhood pubs, I have not once been accosted, nor have I been mugged, nor have I ever heard gunfire or seen evidence of gang-related activity.

Q, good for you. I was mugged three times when I was a freshman. I had friends who were knifed. We learned quickly not to venture out alone.

Perhaps times have changed since I was in school in the 60s. I actually saw the West side turned to ashes when MLK was killed.

	30-09-2004 06:57									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Iskandar Reza Anybody watched "Bowling for Columbine"?

I saw most of it the other night on the Independent film channel. I now know why Moore is what he is.

	30-09-2004 07:00									#45
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quote: Probably because we have a far larger population.

How would that affect crime per 1000 people? Or are you making an argument based on the diversity of our citizens?

	30-09-2004 07:01									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Anyone ever been to one of the thousands of sites that debunks bowling for columbine and every other Michael Moore movie? In bowling for columbine images are actually spliced together. Doesn't get much more dishonest than that.

Really? Links please, I gotta see. Always keep an open mind I say.

	30-09-2004 07:01									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident actually I don't think conservative economies create more poverty. Most people benefit greatyly from this. Including myself. But most poor are left out of the loop I admit. But you know what? I grew up poor, but now I'm not. It can be done.

Dissident, bravo for you. Many conservative minorities argue forcefully that individual responsibility is a way out of poverty open to everyone in our society.

	30-09-2004 07:17									#48
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quote: it has? studies please. and explain to me why punishments in japan and skorea, which are often on par with those of the us, have lower crime rates? hell, what about europe? why do they have lower crime rates?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_tot_cri
larger population, yes.

but even by per capita, it's more. and this is all crimes, mind you, not just murders and rapes.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_mur_cap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_cap

quote: by the way, catholics technically fight the death penalty and think criminals can be rehabilitated, yet many to most are firmly in the conservative camp.

and the link you gave still doesn't explain why the catholic belief that all life is sacred, therefore, death penalty is wrong is bad.
it also doesn't explain why catholics fight the death penalty, believe in rehabilitation, oppose abortion, and yet tend to be conservatives.

and you haven't yet proven your assertion that welfare prohibits car ownership.

	30-09-2004 07:19									#49
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quote: Q, good for you. I was mugged three times when I was a freshman. I had friends who were knifed. We learned quickly not to venture out alone. Perhaps times have changed since I was in school in the 60s. I actually saw the West side turned to ashes when MLK was killed.

i believe you in that times have changed. i just wanted to point out that the anecdote you gave really meant nothing. especially in light of the fact that chicago still hasn't really had a conservative mayor.

	30-09-2004 07:19									#50
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and the reason why chicago is the best city in the world:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lager_Beer_Riot

	30-09-2004 07:21									#51
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Actually Catholics tend to be more liberal especially on social issues. So I don't really see any need to explain anything. And I already answered the car thing. I was going on what I had been told years ago and was true years ago. Recent welfare reform has changed the law.

	30-09-2004 07:23									#52
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Q, I am a "catholic," but I even I do not know where the opposition to the death penalty came from.

As to Catholics being conservative today, I think it has to do with the abortion issue more than anything else. Catholics voted overwhelmingly for Kennedy. I remember when I was in Catholic grade school at the time, I was one of the few "Republican" students in my school. In retrospect, I think Kennedy turned out to be a pretty good president despite his false start at the Bay of Pigs.

	30-09-2004 07:26									#53
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quote: Actually Catholics tend to be more liberal especially on social issues. So I don't really see any need to explain anything.

they are, are they?
http://www.qev.com/reports.political.catholic.htm
http://www.qev.com/Final_rpt.pdf
i think you do.

quote: And I already answered the car thing. I was going on what I had been told years ago and was true years ago. Recent welfare reform has changed the law.

it's easy to say that, but you really didn't answer anything. imran is now asking for proof that it ever was the case.

	30-09-2004 07:28									#54
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quote: Q, I am a "catholic," but I even I do not know where the opposition to the death penalty came from.

the whole sacredness of life thing didn't appear to you ever? i'm lapsed catholic, but even i remember having the death penalty==bad thing being taught to me as a kid at my rich, urban, white, conservative, archbishop's seat, archdioceasan cathederal in atlanta, where the catholic church is still quite conservative...

	30-09-2004 07:38									#55
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quote: So I don't really see any need to explain anything. And I already answered the car thing. I was going on what I had been told years ago and was true years ago. Recent welfare reform has changed the law.

I didn't ask for explination, I asked for proof.

	30-09-2004 07:42									#56
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http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archiv...ecnik081304.htm
http://www.mcjonline.com/news/01a/20010122b.shtml
Ok I can't find where cars were actually not allowed however I did find that in order to own a car it has to be basically a tin can with wheels so maybe that is why I was told that. I am only recalling stuff from back when I was in High School so I'll retract that one.

	30-09-2004 07:46									#57
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ml, i fail to see how that link somehow disproves my comment that most practicing catholics identify as conservatives, or prove your allegation that most catholics are liberals on social issues.

	30-09-2004 07:48									#58
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Well then maybe that other link will. THere are 91 Catholic Democrats in Congress compared to 59 Republicans. I'm not going to retract this one because this one has been talked about on the news before. Catholics have been historically Democratic backers and it hasn't been until recently that they've become more conservative partly because the Democratic party works against many of their beliefs.

	30-09-2004 07:50									#59
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How about this one too? http://www.godspy.com/reviews/Why-t...Broken-Down.cfm Want more?

	30-09-2004 07:50									#60
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catholics have historically been democratic backers because they have traditionally been irish, polish, and italians.

why have irish, polish, and italians traditionally been supporters of democrats? because they were the whites nobody really wanted to consider as whites.