01-10-2004 07:44									#211
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What y'all don't understand is that Kerry needs less to win than Bush. A tie goes to Kerry because he's the challenger with somewhat lower expectations. It worked the same way in 2000.

By that measure, it was a very decisive victory.

	01-10-2004 07:44									#212
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The parts I saw, the end, Kerry seemed more articulate and in command of the issues. Bush left many pauses and seemed less of a debater, but came across as more genuine.

	01-10-2004 07:44									#213
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I thought Kerry looked more poised and managed to convey his points more clearly than Bush.

I'd say it was a clear Kerry win.

	01-10-2004 07:45									#214
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Bush seemed nervous. Kerry looked more confident. Both kept repeating the same boring stuff.

Overall, a marginal victory for Kerry.

	01-10-2004 07:46									#215
	Suffering from ads?

I agree with notyoueither

the pauses, while an obvious attempt to cover the fact that he is an idiot seemed to be more a cover that he did not rehearse the answers tot he questions.

	01-10-2004 07:48									#216
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When it comes to Sophistry, CLEARLY Kerry won. I don't think anyone disputes that Kerry formed a much better argument and generally did much better in the debate.
However when it comes to effect, again I think Bush is going to benefit no matter what he does. Americans like packaging more than substance, and Bush sounds more like Americans sound than Kerry does. They can relate to Bush a lot more (which is kind of sad) and thus Bush will come out on top.

	01-10-2004 07:50									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar No, Bush was pwnd. He ran out of things to say, god knows how many times he used the "If you disagree with me, your demoralising the troops" argument too many times for too many subjects. Bushs "arguments" were mainly "I'm right" or "My opponent agreed with me before" without actually defending his argument. Of course, this is all going to backfire...Americans will think that Bushs ignorance is "cute" or "down to Earth" or whatever.

best summary yet

	01-10-2004 07:51									#218
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Political bias aside, I think Kerry did a better job than Bush but not by much.

By this, I mean that Kerry had the visual element on his side (he looked just as presidential as the Bush), I believe that Kerry's language was crisp and to the point and that Kerry's answers to the questions will resonate with swing voters. However, Bush seemed to be a bit on the defense, his body language often betrayed his real emotions and he flustered his talking a bit.

This isn't like the Regan/Carter debate though.

	01-10-2004 07:53									#219
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CygnusZ gave a good review... whoever the hell you are. Still, 2001 reg. and only a Warlord, and I never see you on the OT, you must be a lurker.... post more

	01-10-2004 07:54									#220
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Jpaher giving the beat DOWN!

	01-10-2004 07:54									#221
	Tired of ads?

Fez, why call me an idiot in PM when you can do it publicly and we can all have more fun?

	01-10-2004 07:54									#222
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lol you too?

	01-10-2004 07:55									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Sava lol you too?

	01-10-2004 07:55									#224
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I was going to call you (Tass) and idiot publicly, but I figured it wasn't worth it, dum commie.... @Fez

	01-10-2004 07:55									#225
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Not me. I'm hurt.

	01-10-2004 07:58									#226
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Bush was a boob. He spent too much time attacking Kerry's character, and not enough time on the issues. Kerry attacked the President's handling of the issues.

	01-10-2004 08:01									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Not me. I'm hurt.

If it makes you feel better, I refer to you as Ramo Lamo Ding Dong...

	01-10-2004 08:02									#228
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I got one too.

Markos should really prevent banned people from posting PMs.

	01-10-2004 08:02									#229
	Suffering from ads?

Ramo Lamo Ding Dong

	01-10-2004 08:02									#230
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I'm waiting for mine. Evidently I don't hate America enough...

	01-10-2004 08:03									#231
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ABC flash poll: Kerry won 45%, Bush won 37%, no change in likely vote.

	01-10-2004 08:04									#232
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Tim Russert said the smartest thing. He said "This is the John Kerry the Democrats voted for in Iowa. Someone who will go toe to toe with George Bush."

	01-10-2004 08:04									#233
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Rather poor timing for Fez to get banned. He needs to plan his schizoid outrages better.

	01-10-2004 08:05									#234
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Bush just kept on pounding and pounding the talking points "wrong war" "mixed messages" "wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages""wrong war" "mixed messages" He did a good job of it if you like that sort of performance (although I wanted to throw something at him when he COMPLETELY dodged the first question in order to hit his talking points) but it was pretty boring.

Kerry was a bit all over the place and didn't counter Bush's main talking points hard enough. I think his best bit was the anecdote about De Gaulle and JFK about how America's credibility with the world has been damaged. I don't think that he did quite enough to pound home how much more difficult Bush's alientation of most of the world will make it for us to gather an alliance in the future or how much of America's credibility Bush has burned. So Kerry did more of a real debate, Bush did more of an advertising campaign but its a bit of a toss-up which is more effective since Kerry didn't pound some of his criticisms home.

Hmmm what else? Bush pissed me off when he claimed credit for the formation of the Department of Homeland Security when it happened despite his opposition to it, it seems that Bush likes claiming credit for things he originally opposed. Also the bit where he says he knows what Iraqi soliders are going through because he gets to sit in his comfy chair and real casualty lists what pretty laughable.

As far as the non-verbal BS that the press obsesses about, Kerry definately won. He was far better than Bush at remaining composed while the other person was talking and it really showed in the cut-away shots. Also he never spoke out of turn and Bush did serveral times in order to signal that he wanted his 30 seconds.

So a marginal victory for Kerry. Also keep in mind that as long as it was even relatively close, this is going to help Kerry in the polls since Bush was well in the lead in the polls on the issues they talked about.

So maybe:
Kerry B
Bush C+

	01-10-2004 08:05									#235
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Even though I think Bush got pwned,I expect little movement in the polls.

	01-10-2004 08:06									#236
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Kerry appeared the more intelligent, articulate, capable and competant of the two. Bush will still win the election for those precise same reasons. For the idiot to whom literacy, racial harmony and Canada are new concepts, Bush is truly the only man who can represent their interests and intellect.

	01-10-2004 08:06									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Bush was a boob. He spent too much time attacking Kerry's character, and not enough time on the issues. Kerry attacked the President's handling of the issues.

That too
Bush also did a crappy job of defending the specifics about his Iraq policy, but then Kerry did a crappy job of proposing a better solution (except for constant "summit" blather). So that issue's a wash.

	01-10-2004 08:08									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Bush just kept on pounding and pounding ... So maybe: Kerry B Bush C+

How in the hell did you see it? You not work on Fridays or something?

edit: Or you work at night. Duh...

	01-10-2004 08:09									#239
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Kerry did a crappy job of calling Bush on the specifics of the Iraq policy. He droned on too much about alliances.

	01-10-2004 08:10									#240
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Even though I think Bush got pwned,I expect little movement in the polls.

That would be true if this was the domestic policy debate, where Kerry is leading. But this is National Security and Iraq policy, where Bush has been pwning Kerry in the polls. So unless Bush crushed Kerry (and I don't think anyone short of Fez and Malevolent Light are going to claim that) even a draw in this debate is going to help Kerry in the polls.