06-10-2004 08:18									#61
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quote: Now what about posting the results from EVERY SINGLE RIDING in Quebec.

Obviously the tories there have no appeal for Quebeckers. Maybe they should try someone who's a more rebust conservative?

	06-10-2004 08:29									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Pretty silly. Two conservative MPs who are backbenchers influencing votes across the country, moreso than the individual candidates in their respective ridings. It's all media hype, the media likes demonising Gallant and White to deflect from the real issues.

Abortion and the Supreme Court are real issues to many Canadians, many Canadians who vehemently disagree with Gallant and White on those issues.

The problem was not having the convictions, more than a few Liberals share a pro-Life viewpoint, or at least are not for unrestricted Choice. The problem was allowing themselves and their personal convictions to take centre stage during a national campaign AS IF they were the party.

To be fair, the media share in the blame for how it was reported. However, any candidate who wants to sink the chances of Tories in marginal ridings (like mine) need only begin answering every question put to them by some reporter/hack from the Toronto Star with complete candor.

	06-10-2004 08:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse The NDP wants electoral reform a lot more than the BQ does...

I haven't really factored the NDP in, TBH, since they don't have enough votes to be decisive.

	06-10-2004 08:45									#64
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btw, it's sort of ironic that PR would cut the knot, as it were. The Tories would be assured of seats in Quebec since even now they poll ~10% there. That should come out to 7 seats or so.

PR would make the Tories move further towards the centre or result in fewer Tory governments as breaks on the Liberals/left. Still, I trust the Canadian people to do the right thing in the end, and that includes mixing up the governments a little bit to make sure no one gets too comfy in the big chair, no matter what system we have.

Incidently, that is why I do not share the pessimism of some about the Tories in Quebec, even though I know very little about the place. I think we will muddle through as we always have.

	06-10-2004 09:29									#65
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And I think that Harper has painted himself into a corner on this. Martin threw down the gauntlet by writing a speech designed to be aggravating to the right and, to a lesser extent, to the BQ (though to be fair it would be difficult to write a speech that they'd like). The proper response (i.e. what will play best with their target audiences) for each the parties is as follows: 1) Liberals: vote for it and proclaim it a piece of genius 2) NDP: vote for it after whining 3) Bloc: vote against it and say that Quebec got the short end of the stick yadda yadda yadda 4) Conservatives: Explain what a piece of trash the speech is. Then abstain from voting and explain to the Canadian people that they'd vote against it, but they don't want to force another election before they have a chance to attempt compromise on more serious issues. Engineer something like a walkout when Martin begins to speak. Nice piece of political theatre, lets people know they're serious, doesn't make them seem obstructionist, keeps them in the public eye.

That's a damn good point.

But now the game's afoot. Let's see how it turns out. The game of chicken between Harper and Duceppe could be worth the price of admission.

	06-10-2004 10:12									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi It's all media hype, the media likes demonising Gallant and White to deflect from the real issues.

How is it demonising to show somebody for what they are?

	06-10-2004 10:35									#67
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Ben's not on ATM, but I would say that painting the picture that Gallant's views spoke for the party was demonising.

If it weren't, why have her splashed across the national press for a week running? They weren't talking about one Ontario candidate, they were talking about the entire party based on her statements, which the party does not back.

Otherwise, why would people in Quebec care? Surely the local Tory was not the same breed of troglodyte.

	06-10-2004 10:51									#68
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse And I think that Harper has painted himself into a corner on this.

That's what I thought at first, but I predict that Harper will announce his party will have a "free" vote on the throne speech. And then, surprise, surprise, there will be just enough Conservative votes in favour of it.

This strategy lets the Conservatives say:
1) We wanted a tax cut for the poor, but the Liberals said no;
2) The Conservative party lets its MPs decide how to vote;
3) When the Libs eventually lose a no confidence vote, the Conservatives can claim they tried to make the minority government work.

Of course, this assumes the Conservative are politically smart, which they have yet to prove.

	06-10-2004 10:55									#69
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quote: The problem was allowing themselves and their personal convictions to take centre stage during a national campaign AS IF they were the party. To be fair, the media share in the blame for how it was reported. However, any candidate who wants to sink the chances of Tories in marginal ridings (like mine) need only begin answering every question put to them by some reporter/hack from the Toronto Star with complete candor.

Why should the opinions of a candidate not in your riding take precedence over a candidate in your riding?

You cannot vote for Cheryl Gallant, or for Randy White. Ergo, you cannot affect whether or not they come into parliament.

However, you can influence parliament through your candidate.

You say Cheryl Gallant spoke for the party and not for herself. Are you reporting what she said, or how the media represents what she said?

The conservative party is supposed to allow people of different opinions on issues to have a voice within the party. Therefore, the opinion of one MP cannot dictate the stance of the party.

	06-10-2004 10:57									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai That's what I thought at first, but I predict that Harper will announce his party will have a "free" vote on the throne speech. And then, surprise, surprise, there will be just enough Conservative votes in favour of it. This strategy lets the Conservatives say: 1) We wanted a tax cut for the poor, but the Liberals said no; 2) The Conservative party lets its MPs decide how to vote; 3) When the Libs eventually lose a no confidence vote, the Conservatives can claim they tried to make the minority government work. Of course, this assumes the Conservative are politically smart, which they have yet to prove.

Hehe. This is sort of what I was thinking. Can always fall back on the free vote thingy.

Only fly in that ointment I can see is that no confidence motion ever has been a free vote. However, perhaps it would be better if they were too.

	06-10-2004 10:58									#71
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quote: Of course, this assumes the Conservative are politically smart, which they have yet to prove.

We shall see how much political acumen they have.

	06-10-2004 10:58									#72
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn A circus is having your government potentially grind to a halt because one party refuses to cooperate with another.

Potentially? That happens on a routine basis in the US, particularly when one party controls the White House and another party controls either the senate or the house.

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn A circus is having communist style party politics where individual members aren't even given a free vote.

Ah, the typical American response: You're just a bunch of commies.

And you know as well as I do that American politicians toe the party line when it matters.

quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn American politics is tame, it only gets slightly crazy at the Executive branch. In fact most of the time its pretty boring. Don't ever kid yourself into believing Canadian politics isn't absolutely insane.

So you think Canadian politics is absolutely insane?

Take another look.

	06-10-2004 11:04									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should the opinions of a candidate not in your riding take precedence over a candidate in your riding? You cannot vote for Cheryl Gallant, or for Randy White. Ergo, you cannot affect whether or not they come into parliament. However, you can influence parliament through your candidate. You say Cheryl Gallant spoke for the party and not for herself. Are you reporting what she said, or how the media represents what she said? The conservative party is supposed to allow people of different opinions on issues to have a voice within the party. Therefore, the opinion of one MP cannot have bearing on the stance of the party.

Most of us can't vote for Harper, Layton, Martin, or Duceppe either, Ben.

Wake up! We vote for parties, leaders, and other icons as much or more than we vote for individual candidates.

You are right that the way the media played it is more important than what she said. All I would say is that after the first national wave she created, she should have had the brains to STFU since it was obvious that she was having an effect far away from her own riding.

IOW, she was effecting the vote in every riding across the land. You can't help but do that when you are front page for a week during a 28 day campaign.

Cut to the chase. Tories have got to learn how to STFU about personal crusades and win elections on a party platform.

	06-10-2004 11:07									#74
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And maybe membership has to be more careful about who gets nominated.

	06-10-2004 11:12									#75
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quote: Most of us can't vote for Harper, Layton, Martin, or Duceppe either, Ben. Wake up! We vote for parties, leaders, and other icons as much or more than we vote for individual candidates.

Okay. So how does the opinion of one candidate in one riding in Ontario affect the position of the Leader?

If we vote for Leaders and parties only, then Cheryl Gallant cannot represent the party.

quote: All I would say is that after the first national wave she created, she should have had the brains to STFU since it was obvious that she was having an effect far away from her own riding.

I could care less. I vote for my MP, and not for Cheryl Gallant. I vote for the Conservative party, and their leader Stephen Harper.

Either way, her opinion does not matter outside of her own riding.

quote: IOW, she was effecting the vote in every riding across the land. You can't help but do that when you are front page for a week during a 28 day campaign.

The media blew this out of proportion to deflect people from the real issues of the campaign, such as the democratic deficit under Martin.

Sure, you can say Cheryl Gallant killed her party, but the only reason her face got on the national media is because they made it an issue, and not her.

quote: Cut to the chase. Tories have got to learn how to STFU about personal crusades and win elections on a party platform.

I vote for my MP. I want to know where he stands on the issues. I know where the party stands. But the biggest influence I can have on parliament is to vote for the candidate that best represents my interests.

If that candidate happens to be a conservative, then I will vote for the conservative party. If that candidate happens to be a liberal, then I vote for the Liberal party. Any other method diminishes my influence drastically.

	06-10-2004 11:18									#76
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Ah, the old "blame the media" routine. Always a convenient excuse.

	06-10-2004 11:18									#77
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quote: And maybe membership has to be more careful about who gets nominated.

That's the best way to get involved, is in the Conservative nominations, especially because they do not appoint their candidates.

I did that, and I think the Conservatives would have done better in both ridings, had the candidate I supported won. Both of them were better organised, and more attractive in the general election then the candidates that did run.

One lost due to a backroom deal between two inferior candidates, and another lost because the Conservative voters did not represent the riding population in any appreciable measure.

I counted something like 1:2 ratio of Beemers to non-Beemers at that meeting.

I'm not stupid NYE. I know that many people do not support abortion, but for people like Cheryl Gallant, who have considerable support in their riding, they ought to be encouraged to speak their mind, to show that the party can work with the ideas of people, rather than muzzling them.

	06-10-2004 11:32									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Okay. So how does the opinion of one candidate in one riding in Ontario affect the position of the Leader? If we vote for Leaders and parties only, then Cheryl Gallant cannot represent the party.

I didn't say that we vote for parties and leaders only. Read it again. Icons. In this past election, many voted on Gallant, whether they were in her riding or not. Couldn't help but do that. She put herself forward as a symbol, and part of the result is the verdict on her and her position.

quote: I could care less. I vote for my MP, and not for Cheryl Gallant. I vote for the Conservative party, and their leader Stephen Harper. Either way, her opinion does not matter outside of her own riding.

Wrong. Quaint, but wrong.

I have to ask if you actually care about supporting a realistic alternative to endless Liberal governments?

You're a smart guy. I can't see you missing the connections.

quote: The media blew this out of proportion to deflect people from the real issues of the campaign, such as the democratic deficit under Martin. Sure, you can say Cheryl Gallant killed her party, but the only reason her face got on the national media is because they made it an issue, and not her.

Actually, after the initial rush, she just didn't shut up. She went on. And on. And then the media carried it on, again.

She had the opportunity to be a tempest in a teacup, but she was dumber than a sack of hammers and spoke up again. She should have STFU. She didn't. In future, when Tories are creeping up in numbers in Nova Scotia and Quebec, such outbursts will cost seats.

Why do you have such a hard time understanding this?

quote: I vote for my MP. I want to know where he stands on the issues. I know where the party stands. But the biggest influence I can have on parliament is to vote for the candidate that best represents my interests. If that candidate happens to be a conservative, then I will vote for the conservative party. If that candidate happens to be a liberal, then I vote for the Liberal party. Any other method diminishes my influence drastically.

And none of that involves going before the national media and saying 'I'm right, and you all are wrong, dammit.'

A simple 'it's been overblown and I'll speak with my constituents' would have been in order. A reinforcement of the original flap was not. She did the later.

She cost seats.

It's that simple.

	06-10-2004 12:05									#79
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quote: She put herself forward as a symbol, and part of the result is the verdict on her and her position.

And that's just what the papers want you to do. Make this election a referendum on abortion. And meanwhile, the Liberals escape defeat.

Much better to look at each individual liberal candidate, and see what they have accomplished during their time in power. Let's start with Hedy Fry...

The Liberals are stronger when the attention is off of their individual candidates, and on the positions of their opponents.

They don't have a very strong party compared with years past. Look at some of the members they have had to appoint to cabinet positions.

quote: I have to ask if you actually care about supporting a realistic alternative to endless Liberal governments?

I am. Provided that alternative is really an alternative, and just not a liberal dressed in conservative clothes. And I voted against the Conservative in my riding who almost managed to finish third to the NDP. He had no chance, he did nothing during his entire campaign. He sat for 2 months and did not challege the liberal, Ujjal Dosanjh.

Instead, I voted for the Heritage Party candidate that I thought would make a better MP, even though he had no hope of victory.

quote: Actually, after the initial rush, she just didn't shut up. She went on. And on. And then the media carried it on, again.

So what? Let them report about the great candidate in Ontario, who represents the riding of Nipissing.

You see, you are reverting to the way the Liberal party works. If the party does not take action to muzzle the speech of their candidates, this automatically means that the party approves of the statements.

It does not. Harper made his stance clear. The party has no stance on abortion.

What more do you want, NYE? To muzzle the candidates just like the Liberals do? To make sure that no one deviates from the party line?

quote: She had the opportunity to be a tempest in a teacup, but she was dumber than a sack of hammers and spoke up again. She should have STFU. She didn't. In future, when Tories are creeping up in numbers in Nova Scotia and Quebec, such outbursts will cost seats.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. I know Diefenbaker complained of the same thing, losing a seat because of comments made by people on Ontario. But he won later on, regardless of the redistribution of his riding, and regardless of party affiliation, even though his views did not change.

If you are a conservative candidate who is unable to make sure that the people of the riding see you, and not another candidate, then you are running a poor campaign. If they see you, then regardless of what the other Conservatives say, they will vote for you, and your seat will be much more secure than it will be otherwise.

quote: Why do you have such a hard time understanding this?

Because I see people win when they connect with the people in their riding, and lose when they ride on the coattails of a party.

quote: And none of that involves going before the national media and saying 'I'm right, and you all are wrong, dammit.'

And Ms. Fry accused people from Prince George of burning crosses on their lawns.

Yet the same is true of both. If you serve your constituents, they will be loyal to you. They vote for Ms. Fry in Vancouver Centre, because they know her, and she has done a good job for them.

The same is true for Cheryl Gallant. If she serves her constituents well in Nipissing, she will establish a Conservative stronghold in Ontario.

quote: She cost seats.

We need better candidates, who are willing to fight for their ridings, to make themselves known over the party.

	06-10-2004 12:31									#80
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Wishful thinking, Ben.

The idea is not what makes you vote how you vote. The idea is what makes THE REST OF CANADA vote the way they vote.

'Our' party is trying to win them. They do not owe 'us' anything. 'We' need to win their confidence, not the other way around.

	06-10-2004 21:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Speech given by the Govenor General to both Houses of Parliament that outlines the intentions of the government in broad strokes for the session of Parliament that is just beginning.

Wait, I thought you had a single-house Parliament... or do you make a speech to the English Parliament?

And why would it not being passed cause new elections?

	06-10-2004 21:23									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Wait, I thought you had a single-house Parliament... or do you make a speech to the English Parliament?

Good question indeed. Perhaps NYE was talking about the Senate?

quote: And why would it not being passed cause new elections?

I think that it is required to enterinate the legitimacy of the government, but I'm really not sure.

	06-10-2004 21:53									#83
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Ben's not on ATM, but I would say that painting the picture that Gallant's views spoke for the party was demonising.

Possibly. But Ben claimed that the media demonised those two individuals...

	06-10-2004 21:57									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Wait, I thought you had a single-house Parliament... or do you make a speech to the English Parliament?

There is also the immensely powerful Senate.

	06-10-2004 22:01									#85
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KH, the Senate is not that weak. It can block any laws; but since the PM can nominate any number of senators that suits him, he would counter a hostile senate by appointing X required number of new senators favorable to his position.

	06-10-2004 22:03									#86
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"Parliament" consists of a Lower House (the House of Commons) and a castrated Upper House (In Britain it's called the House of Lords, in Canada it's called the Senate).

The Upper House in Britain wields more power and is less democratic than the Upper House in Canada, though only slightly. Essentially the Senate is an unelected rubber-stamp body. The Prime Minister appoints its members for life (though they're now forced to retire at 75). Since the Liberals are always in power the Senate consists almost entirely of Liberals, and they don't generally try to kick up any fuss.

	06-10-2004 22:10									#87
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quote: Wait, I thought you had a single-house Parliament... or do you make a speech to the English Parliament?

Speech from the throne, the throne being the Crown of England. The speech is made by the representative of the Queen in parliament, our Governor General.

We are a constitutional monarchy, in a bicameral system, with an upper house, (senate), and a lower house, (commons).

Now, in our system, the senate is supposed to be higher up than the commons, but most of the legislative power we invest in the commons.

	06-10-2004 22:11									#88
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quote: But Ben claimed that the media demonised those two individuals...

They have.

They don't froth at the mouth just because they are prolife.

	06-10-2004 22:12									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Speech to the throne

Speech from the throne, not to it.

quote: the throne being the Crown of England. The speech is made to the representative of the Queen in parliament, our Governor General.

Made by the G-G...

	06-10-2004 22:18									#90
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Thank you.