05-10-2004 22:37									#1
	Diplomatic Contact with the Spartans Tired of ads?

The Spartans have found our northwestern mind worm with one of their rovers. As we are both in Hive territory, hostilities seem unlikely, but we have diplomatic contact nonetheless.

From Googlie:

quote: CT: Our wandering rover has met your damaged mindworm at co-ordinates 40:50 (ours) and 41:51 (yours) I have asked Drogue/Method for a time extension to allow us to exchange ambassadorial accreditations, etc I have also set up a private forum for our 2 factions at: http://www.aimoo.com/forum/password...d.cfm?id=617927 and the password is: warlock Cheers G

	05-10-2004 22:39									#2
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Circumstances of the meeting:

Attachment: 2140-mindworm.jpg
This has been downloaded 52 time(s).

	05-10-2004 23:35									#3
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Spartans? They must have popped a pod wich misplaced the rover. I have no idea how else could it spawn there, given that they are most likely on opposite side of the world.
This is a great chance for us! We should determine if they've met Angels - I hope not, since we should exploit contact with them. I suggest tech trade for Doctrine Mobility - we can then redirect to Social Psych and fulfill our end of deal with Angels.

	05-10-2004 23:46									#4
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quote: We note that you (Gaians) are currently in vendetta with our dear Chairman Yang. We have a certain "clout" with him and could be persuaded to intervene and ask him to call off his vendetta with you (assuming that you would welcome peace with the Hive for the time being) Any interest? Major Googlie

Hmmm, interesting proposal. I would welcome it, but they might request a counterfavour.

One thing: Could we this time be careful and not slip out the fact we met the Spartans? It would be very useful if they haven't met Angels (which we will find out when we receive the turn).

	05-10-2004 23:57									#5
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It would be a huge boon to get Doc: Mobility and redirect research to Social Psych. We can't tell what techs we have that they don't until our turn comes around, however. I would pay quite a high price for this boost.

I don't think peace with Yang would be much benefit right now. I advocate infiltrating him and stealing some tech, and perhaps even conquering a base or two, which is quite the opposite of peace.

The Spartans might not be as distant as we thought, though a pod teleport is entirely plausible. Also bear in mind that rovers move fast.

	06-10-2004 00:06									#6
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Well, they would have to cross entire Yang teritory. If we assume that they are on NE part of X-continent there is no way that they could travel all this way without help of pod teleportation. I shall inquire what would they wish for Doctrine: Mobility. Could we perhaps discourage them of moving SW if they haven't met Angels? Either by blocking their MW or diplomaticaly telling them that.

	06-10-2004 00:13									#7
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I think it's futile to try to tell the Spartans where not to go, especially if they actually have enough power to influence Yang. Besides, they've looked at the map, too, and probably know someone is on each corner. If we feel like lying, we could tell them (indirectly) that we are where the Angels actually are. They may or may not know enough to see through our lie, but if they do, our diplomatic relations will be poor.

	06-10-2004 00:16									#8
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Well it is a thought. The later they discover Angels, the better for us.

	06-10-2004 04:35									#9
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I remembered that we can contact human faction leaders before actual contact, and offer tech, even though we aren't allowed to make such offers in the official game. So I pulled up our last turn, and we have the following techs they do not:

Biogenetics
Industrial Base
Industrial Economics
Industrial Automation

They also have not contacted the Angels as of our last turn.

I would be willing to trade any one of our techs for Doc: Mobility, and I would not be put off by demands for 2 techs. In particular IA, though still powerful, is much less powerful for Santiago since she can't run Wealth.

	06-10-2004 05:18									#10
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If we get mobility, what do we do with regards to the Angels? Tell them of contact, and trade?

	06-10-2004 07:52									#11
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We are bound by treaty to tell the Angels of all tech we obtain. We may not be bound to tell them how we got the tech, as an artifact, pod, or perhaps random event is a plausible source. If we are bound to tell them how, we still don't have to give them contact information for free.

As far as trading, we would be able to trade them Doc: Mobility for future Doc: Flexibility.

	06-10-2004 12:24									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Biogenetics Industrial Base Industrial Economics Industrial Automation

Well it seems that Spartans are following a military beeline since they went for formers and probes only. We should negotiate a research treaty in future to get techs they don't have. The question is, who are they thinking of storming? Perhaps they intend to storm one of AIs, or Morgans. This is not important now. I offered one of level one techs for Doctrine Mobility - if they want more we can easily double the stakes and get Mobility for Angels.

	06-10-2004 12:35									#13
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Even if they're going military, they need defense, and so need Industrial Base. Impact rovers only go so far...

Given that they should have approximately as many techs as we do (7, IIRC), how about we start guessing what they might have?

The Spartans definitely have these technologies:
Doc: Mobility
Centauri Ecology
Information Networks
Planetary Networks

They probably have these technologies:
Applied Physics
Nonlinear Mathematics

They may not have any more techs, but if they do, they might include:
Doctrine: Loyalty
Social Psych
Doctrine: Flexibility
or possibly something extorted from Yang

	06-10-2004 13:50									#14
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Well they certainly have or are researching Nonlinear Mathematics. We should ask them for a full list of technologies somehow, after trade for Mobility.

	06-10-2004 14:24									#15
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We should try signing the same "research treaty" with them and if they are suspicious of it, we can sign it for say 20 yrs..

At least we must trade the techs we need soon, because the chance that Angels will get that contact rises with each turn passing

The techs we need (in order of importance,but it could be discussed) are:

Doc:Mob
Doc:Flex
Doc:Loy
Nonl Math
App Phys

The techs we have are:

Biogenetics
Industrial Base
Industrial Economics
Industrial Automation

So deals should sound:

1.BioGen for Doc:Mob (should be proposed ASAP!)
Reason: I doubt they will want IB.. and that will also be sign of our fairness and friendship
Proposal draft:
"Biogen will offset all your troubles with poor industry blahblah... And if you ask us where can you get the credits for building those RecTanx, we say - hey, youre Spartans, so go out and do the things in which you are the most skilled - pop pods and kill MWs!"

2.Industrial Economics for Doc:Flex
Reason: we really need those foils and if they will actually use FM, they will weaken their Spartan side..

3.Industrial Base for App Phys
Reason: techs quite equal - one gives 2 defense, other - 2 offense (not mentioning the techs it allows.. )

4.Industrial Automation for Doc:Loy + Nonl Math
Reason: IA is much more than those 2 together as you'll never be able to win only by producing 4-1-2 rovers on -INDUSTRY!

If you question why App Phys goes before the IA deal - I don't know, maybe they can be reversed, but I generally think that we really do not want to give them IA and that IB tech will slow their research additionally

We can become a tech broker if we seize the opportunity and make those deals ASAP!

	06-10-2004 14:39									#16
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Good analysis, even if we are just speculating about techs. It would be great if they have flexibility as tech - we could rip off Angels for it. If the trade goes well, I shall propose them limited tech treaty (only binding to exchanging lists of techs).

	06-10-2004 18:40									#17
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I would value Applied Physics above Nonlinear Math at this point - Applied Physics is an important prerequisite, whereas Nonlinear Math is not a prerequisite to anything important for a while, and we don't need strength-4 weapons. It should also be cheaper in trade, at least from the Spartans.

	07-10-2004 02:31									#18
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The Spartans seem to be really pushing their ability to make Yang peaceful with us. If we do not want peace with Yang (and I don't), I suggest we tell them that we intend to step on Yang.

The Spartans' last offer was IA for peace with Yang and Doctrine: Mobility. I would be willing to trade them IA for Doc: Mobility, after negotiations to try to get a lower price, but I see peace with Yang as undesirable.

Last edited by Chaos Theory on 07-10-2004 at 02:42

	07-10-2004 04:00									#19
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In my various MP games being a tech broker in the early game is extremely powerful, especially if the faction is a tad tech shy like the Spartans (no Wealth – hehe). This does hose later research, but if they have techs we have decided we need then a trade one-for-one is a good deal. But, do NOT give or sell them the link to Angels since this destroys the ability to broker. Moreover, keeping the Angels in our pocket (kind of) gives us a diplomatic go-between, if needed.

We need to keep the Spartans hungry, and convinced that we are better alive than dead. Keep our diplomatic monopoly as long as possible.

In my opinion getting the Spartans to get Yang to call off his war against us is worthless. He’ll just declare again, and if he doesn’t it puts us in a bind if we want to steal tech or do other nasty things to him (which we definitely do!). Simply put, Yang is a very useful block between us and the Spartans. And he is building nice bases for us to ‘liberate’, after we have drained him of tech and energy. The only way I’d agree to the Spartan’s proposal is if there is some compelling reason to curry favor, and I can’t think of a reason to do so at this time. I prefer a cool distance with the Spartans, and playing a tough-but-fair diplomatic game. In that game Yang is dogmeat (eventually).

So, trading AI for D:M is OK by me. We get rovers, they get crawlers. I don’t see why we can’t trade one-for-one, unless there is some critical tech we don’t want them to get. Then we can offer that to the Angels, get their trade – net benefit for us, the Tech Broker Of Chiron (Angels, eat your tiny black hearts out!!).

Hydro

	07-10-2004 12:33									#20
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I've responded to their message, saying that we do not see Yang as a threat, and that their proposal has been rejected. I also restated earlier proposal of exchange of Biogenetics for Doctrine: Mobility.

quote: My greetings to Lady Skye and to the Gaian Union. I am Major Kassiopeia, Senior Diplomat of the Junta, and will act as your liaison to our faction. I am delighted to see that you are willing to co-operate with us, and hope that we can continue to do so in the future. Your offer of Treaty of Friendship is accepted, but with a certain degree of caution. We like to keep to ourselves, and see such agreements as liabilities, not causes of trust and celebration. Therefore I must mention that this Treaty should not be considered a permanent one, but a temporary one of eight Mission Years. However, if the Gaian Union is found trustworthy and friendly during this period, the Treaty will be extended, or made permanent (Out Of Character: Of course keeping in mind allied victory is impossible). This is our standard procedure for all factions. The treaty can be upgraded to a pact, even, if deemed necessary; for instance, a Treaty term with the Hive is coming to a close soon and we are discussing whether or not to agree to a pact with them. Rest assured, should you make the Spartans your friends, they will be the best of your friends. With best regards, Major Kassiopeia

This message is however reason to be concerned a bit. They are emphasizing that treaty of friendship is temporary, and that we have to prove 'our friendship'. Also, until infiltration, I am not sure if they are really considering the option of pact with Yang, but if they really can influence him, it is a possibility. If they can pact with Yang, they would become a threat in near future.

	07-10-2004 13:52									#21
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I don't mind their insistence upon a temporary treaty - it seems rather in-character for the Spartans, and it's not like they can beat down our door anyway. If they pact with Yang and attack, they'll still have a long supply chain, and we can drive a wedge between them with probe actions.

	07-10-2004 17:42									#22
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The Spartans have offered us Gene Splicing for Industrial Automation. This could be very handy to trade to others, though its ability to remove nutrient caps is much less useful to us. It is also a prerequisite for Synthetic Fossil Fuels (the other being HEC).

The Spartans also claim they have no need of either Industrial Base or Biogenetics. Unless they plan to obtain Industrial Base in another way, I doubt they can get far without it. Notably, they have Gene Splicing without Biogenetics. Perhaps they were able to trade for Ethical Calculus from Yang, or they are trading with yet another faction. If they are trading with another human faction (the Morganites), they would already have had a chance to trade for IA.

	07-10-2004 18:54									#23
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They offered IA+IB for DM+GS in the same. I think it is a good and fair trade, since we can redirect our research and get a handy technology for trading and a prequisite in our path for Doctrine: Air Power. On the other hand they get last two technologies needed for path of conquest (IB for defense and IA for economy), so there are pros and cons. I will make a poll about this, but be free to offer them IB and IA Chaos in a deal (not accepted of course ).

	07-10-2004 20:45									#24
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They also offered Lal's frequency for Roze's frequency. I would be inclined against this, though if we decline, we need to decide how.

We can lie and say we haven't met the Angels, or we can state that we do have their frequency but we won't trade it, or we can categorically rule out frequency trading. If we don't respond soon, it will appear that we have the capability to accept their trade but are deciding whether or not to.

	07-10-2004 20:45									#25
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quote: Excellent news, Lord Illuminatus, hopefully the Gaian people will agree with the proposal at hand. Would you, by chance, happen to have the commlink frequency of the Datatech faction? We could trade the commlink of the Peacekeepers in exchange for it.

, uh oh, I wandered when they will ask for it. Since all faction know about our contact with Angels, we should try to formulate our response in a way that will not insult them. It would be good to delay their mutual contact. If we could only delay the contact with our units... Perhaps we should mention to them that they should remove their rover so that our MW can move home, and then move MW towards Angel teritory, and hopefully occupying landbridge between them and Hive. They might even think Angels are on the other side and go in our direction.
How to refuse their proposal? Perhaps we should mention that we do not feel that trading such information to faction with whom we have only temporary Treaty of Friendships, and that commlink is much more valuable than commlink to AI (on that note, does this mean Lal is north or they stumbled upon him with displaced foil), unless they give us Morgan commlink or sth much more valuable (probably not within their capabilities).

	07-10-2004 20:49									#26
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Oh yeah, that's public knowledge. That narrows our options, of course.

	07-10-2004 21:00									#27
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Same minute posts.

quote: Dear major Kassiopeia, the High Council thinks that trading commlink frequencies with faction with which we have only temporary treaty of friendship is out of question until our level of trust improves. Even then, Spartan Federation would need to make a better offer - AI commlink for a commlink of a human faction is rather unfair.

Perhaps something following this lines? We should try to be honest, and not deny the possesion.

	07-10-2004 21:11									#28
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BTW, could one member (perhaps you Chaos?) ask in Military affairs subforum about movement of their rover in future? Like if they plan to go west again with rover? We could explain it that we plan to 'return 'our mindworm home, and that zone of control rules will prevent moving it in case we follow the same direction. They could get the impression we are to the west, and send their rover east, to us.

	07-10-2004 21:30									#29
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Now that I'm looking at the picture of our contact, something unusual becomes apparent: the Spartans have already explored the peninsula that we dropped our mind worm off on. Why would they have done that? All the forest and fungus would have made for slow movement. Maybe they expected to find a faction down there? Maybe a unit was teleported there randomly (but then why is it back at the base of the peninsula?). Have they traded for someone's map data? If so, who else would have been there (obviously they have not traded for Yang's map, or the east side of the picture would not be unexplored)?

I have suggested that they move their rover out of our mind worm's path. We probably will have to tell the truth about how the mind worm got there - unity foil transport.

	07-10-2004 21:43									#30
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Well, it is obvious that they must have used teleportation in some way to get here. Since they couldn't trade maps with Angels, and Hive map it isn't there are two options: their unit teleported there (to the peninsula), and they explored that way, hoping to run into explorers of another faction. Second option is that the screenshot is manafactured. Third: peecekeeper AI explored that way and they traded map with Lal. Well, the first option does seem most likely. Hopefully the message will confuse them, and if it doesn't, it would be good to move MW west just to prevent contact between them and Angels (although they might think this is just what we are attempting to do). If they think that, there is a solution - they will probabaly ask why we are moving it west, and we can explain that we are withdrawing units from New Muirland and since foil is busy, we used fungal paths for shortcut(since they read VoP, and the article about New Muirland was just before the contact with Angels) they will assume that Angels requested we withdraw units from their teritory and that we were just doing that (does sound as plausible explanation).

Last edited by Illuminatus on 07-10-2004 at 21:50