22-10-2004 23:07									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory Others may be interested to learn that the Spartans do in fact have Morgan's commlink (and vice-versa, of course). Thus, their statement that they could not get it from Yang, while perhaps true, is misleading in that we wanted Morgan's commlink from Sparta. They are untrustworthy.

Well, do unto others, as they've done unto you. Honesty should now be optional when dealing with the Spartans. I say we mislead them anytime we feel we wont get caught do so.

I say we go to them and say a "reliable partner" of the Gaian Union has informed us that you indeed have had contact with the Morganites, and that you were purposefully withholding the commlink from the Gaian people. Not only will that put the on the spot, but they will also wonder who the rat is that sold them out. This will increase their paranoid tendencies, thus weakening relations with the other factions.

	22-10-2004 23:32									#62
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A detailed record of what happened:

quote: 10-10-2004 17:54 Originally posted by Googlie Onward to the Gaians Attachment: acdg3-gaians, 2142.zip

quote: Date Posted: 11/10/2004 8:05 AM Originally posted by Illuminatus I am sorry Googlie, but Gaians will soon have networks infiltrated as well, so I don't believe if we are interested in it at all. I was wondeing what do you require for Morgan's comlink, once you buy it from Chairman Yang. Omnia mutantur nos et mutamur in illis.

quote: Date Posted: 12/10/2004 3:30 AM Originally posted by Googlie Dear Lord Illuminatus: We understand your reluctance to expend energy credits for information you hope to soon have yourselves. Unfortunately the Chairman is not being very compliant right now as regards parting with commlink information (perhaps as a result of our rover rummaging around in his territory}. However rest assured, we will keep trying. (And please pass on our best wishes from our covert operations specialists to your undercover agents as they attempt Hive infiltration. The offer is still open to provide specific Hive base data if you wish to view any base defenses beforehand) Major Googlie (Commander, Covert Operations, Sparta Federation) Currently assigned to the XXXXXXX (Censored by order of Lt.Col Maniac)

Note that at some time before 17:54 10-10, the Spartans obtained Morgan's commlink. As of 3:30 12-10, Googlie lied to us about Morgan's commlink. Even if they didn't obtain it from the Hive, he misled us, and lied by saying he would continue to try to get Morgan's commlink.

	25-10-2004 17:33									#63
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OK, it is almost two days after we rejected all Spartan offers and everything seems to be quiet. Should we break the silence and offer a deal of our own ? For example, Doc: Flex for Biogenetics and 10 credits?

	25-10-2004 18:19									#64
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Yeah, definitely!
We must now show initiative - we turned down their insultative deals, now we must offer ours - more fair ones!

	25-10-2004 18:33									#65
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If we do, we need to be clear that embargoes need to be short or nonexistant. I expect they will reject our deals, but we really should make them anyway so they have an idea what we expect and why they're bad trading partners.

	25-10-2004 18:43									#66
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quote: If we do, we need to be clear that embargoes need to be short or nonexistant. I expect they will reject our deals, but we really should make them anyway so they have an idea what we expect and why they're bad trading partners.

You read my mind

	25-10-2004 21:36									#67
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May I ask what are the limitations in possible tech trading for Flexibility? For example what is the limit we can offer - in credits, technologies etc. I think we should use the fact that we got 50 credits for Sparta's breaking of trade embargo coupled with fact that IA is a level 3 tech (and they value tech levels) against them, and proclaim that tech value of Flex is 50 credits or 83 without five year embargo - leading to initial offer of Biogenetics and 20 credits for Doc:Flex with embargo (real target - Flex for Biogenetics for 25 credits). We can refund some of cost later when trading it to Angels.

	25-10-2004 21:43									#68
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quote: Even if they didn't obtain it from the Hive, he misled us, and lied by saying he would continue to try to get Morgan's commlink.

Is that legal, or not?

	25-10-2004 21:44									#69
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We shouldn't depend on possible returns from a trade with the Angels, as the Spartans will likely try to hastily trade Doc: Flex to them if they trade it to us with a short embargo.

I doubt they truly value tech levels as much as they proclaim, but we can certainly act like we do, and put the pressure back on them. The incremental cost of breaking an embargo on Doc: Flex should be approximately 33 ECs, and no more than 50, by their logic.

They may not value Biogenetics highly, since they have some of the techs that would have it as a prereq, and can always, in principle, obtain it from Morgan. For what it's worth, the Spartans have obtained Industrial Base, despite earlier claims that it is worthless to them. We can use that to counter their argument that our tech is worthless.

	25-10-2004 21:44									#70
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I’m glad the Spartan’s one-sided ‘deals’ were rejected. If they don’t want to play equitably then they can go play with themselves (a somewhat frightening mental picture). In particular, their ‘tech level’ argument is moronic, and an obvious ploy to get us to bite. I suggest you tell them that.

Also, you may have noticed the little quotations at the base of some of the Spartan player’s posts. Although I don’t recall the exact words the intent stuck: We’re ruthless, and the world is full of targets. So, if we roll over and say ‘please don’t hurt me’ then that is exactly what they do. It is clear the Spartans are role playing, so they expect strength. Hence, my suggestion to call them on their tactics and tell them that if they are interested in a profitable relationship then they need to pony up – tough but fair.

Hydro

	25-10-2004 21:53									#71
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I intend to play along on their tech level argument for now - using prices they inadvertently suggested to lower the prices we will pay for Doc: Flex and EthCal. Then we can reject the argument.

(also Hydro, there is a nice bit that they put quotes in their sigs - perhaps we should do the same thing?)

	25-10-2004 21:55									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf quote: Even if they didn't obtain it from the Hive, he misled us, and lied by saying he would continue to try to get Morgan's commlink. Is that legal, or not?

It's perfectly legal to lie, but we can react however we want.

	25-10-2004 21:55									#73
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quote: Also, you may have noticed the little quotations at the base of some of the Spartan player’s posts. Although I don’t recall the exact words the intent stuck: We’re ruthless, and the world is full of targets. So, if we roll over and say ‘please don’t hurt me’ then that is exactly what they do. It is clear the Spartans are role playing, so they expect strength. Hence, my suggestion to call them on their tactics and tell them that if they are interested in a profitable relationship then they need to pony up – tough but fair.

Sounds very reasonable!

	25-10-2004 21:59									#74
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quote: We can use that to counter their argument that our tech is worthless.

There's no point in arguing.

The point is to get Flex. If they use an excuse, and we destroy the excuse, they still might not want to budge...they still have the option of turning nasty.

	25-10-2004 22:03									#75
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That's fine, let them turn nasty. They can't do a thing to us yet, so either they look awkward turning down our deals, they accept suboptimal deals, or they make empty threats. I want to get the ideological upper hand. That is, I want to make them look like the aggressor to themselves, to make it absolutely clear to them that they do not have any particular reason to attack us. Then, they will have trouble recruiting allies, and may have trouble supporting a war internally.

	25-10-2004 22:06									#76
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We should not get too arrogant ourselves too. We should try to appear as a fair faction to everyone. Besides, Spartan members are not quite familiar with longterm visions, IIRC from their previous experience from last ACDG.

	26-10-2004 02:01									#77
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We should call them out on this lie, and seek considerable assurances that they are not lying to us in everything. It is not what they lied about that counts, but that their team culture is such that they CAN lie to others if they so decide.

Personally however, I know teams will mislead a little or stonewall when they are not sure what to do, or not want to inadvertently give another team an advantage. We should give them a hard time on this, but privately not think it is too big an issue.

	26-10-2004 12:26									#78
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Attention!

Please take your time, go to recruitment thread (ACDG3) and see fractioning amongst the Spartan leaders:
find my post at 26.10.2004 ~10 o'clock
and count two post upwards (read them) - they're Krysias Krusader's and Googlie's posts..

They speak about conflict.

	26-10-2004 22:39									#79
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Well, I see what you mean, but is it perhaps 'reading too much into it', to assume there is a factionization? And even if there is, how does this benefit us?

	27-10-2004 12:11									#80
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Uh, it could be conflict, and then again it could be roleplay conflcit, and then again it could be false conflict orchestrated by them. Keep attention on it BT. BTW still no response from Spartans.

	27-10-2004 14:15									#81
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More conflicting found in recruit thread + rec comm thread

Someone was asking who is second in command in Sparta, Kassiopeia answers - no second command, just two 1st and I'm the 3rd
Now he says he is 2nd in command and explains it as reorganisation

Seems one of the conflicting leaders has been banned from the top..

And I suspect Googlie or Maniac is the one who's banned

Last edited by binTravkin on 27-10-2004 at 14:21

	27-10-2004 14:18									#82
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Interesting, but hardly worth paying too much attention to.

	27-10-2004 14:22									#83
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quote: Interesting, but hardly worth paying too much attention to.

That could give us upper hand in the diplomacy and maybe some infiltration..

	27-10-2004 22:58									#84
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin And I suspect Googlie or Maniac is the one who's banned

Whaaa? From what is have seen those are fairly level headed guys. Why would they get banned? I mean it would be one thing if you speculated a Enigma Nova, or hell even myself got banned. But Googlie and Maniac seem pretty even tempered. I guess I really don't know them that well, but what would make you think this?.

	28-10-2004 02:01									#85
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If they did ban these two fine gentlemen then it is their loss. And our gain.

Hydro

	28-10-2004 17:20									#86
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quote: Whaaa? From what is have seen those are fairly level headed guys. Why would they get banned? I mean it would be one thing if you speculated a Enigma Nova, or hell even myself got banned. But Googlie and Maniac seem pretty even tempered. I guess I really don't know them that well, but what would make you think this?.

Banned from Spartan leadership, read my previuos post about 2 1st commands in Sparta

	29-10-2004 00:46									#87
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quote: In light of your refusal of our latest proposals, the fact that we do not believe we have much to gain from you, and our assumption that you are exercising "free flow of information" with the Data Angels, we are refraining from all trade negotiations with you for the time being. I deeply apologize if our silence has confused you. We will from now on prefer to deal with the Angels and the Gaians as a single entity (and increase prices accordingly), since any technologies traded to you will inevitably spread between the two of you under this principle of "free flow of information".

I can say only one word: crap.

	29-10-2004 01:21									#88
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Why are you upset? We can barely trade with them anyway, and we certainly can't trust them. This just strengthens our relations with the Angels.

	29-10-2004 02:11									#89
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I wouldn't even worry about it Illuminatus. It will ultimately be their loss shutting themselves off to both Gaian and Angel's techs. Additionally, if we can develop good relations with the Morganites, we can shut them out all together, doomed to trail in the tech race.

My only regret is that we traded anything with them at all.

	29-10-2004 13:24									#90
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quote: This just strengthens our relations with the Angels.

DEFINITELY forward this to angels with our comments!

Spartans may be making intrigues here, so DA should know this (and this would make them more faithful in us )