06-10-2004 08:11									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar

Laugh it up. If you were listening to NPR about an hour before the debate a panel listed a bunch of things Edwards should do to make the right impression in this debate. Edwards did everything they said, its as if he was listening. He may have been, it was uncanny.

	06-10-2004 08:14									#32
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn It gave Edwards presence, and was a striking contrast to Cheney who even declined to answer a bunch of questions or gave one word answers.

Declining to answer can work.

	06-10-2004 08:23									#33
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To again pull a Mr Fun on a Mr Fun thread, here's my original responce to the other thread:

quote: I missed some of the middle, but from what I saw I'd definately give the edge to Cheney. He was more focused and he flowed much better. Edwards sounded like he was stringing together memorized sound bites rather than responding to the question or Cheney (but at least he had a hell of a lot more sound bites to string together than Bush so he wasn't anywhere near as hellishly repetitive). Again and again he brought up things completely out of left field that got really annoying. Would definately give Cheney the win in the first half and thought that Edwards recovered a bit and came fairly close to evening it up in the second, but still if you're honest you've got to give it to Cheney.

quote: Well from what I read by people so far (left and right), Cheney cleaned up. Told you so .

Ya, Imran is a smart man. Wouldn't go as far as cleaned up though, Cheney won by less than Kerry did.

quote: Edwards scored a big hit when he illustrated Cheney's Congressional record.

Yeah, that was Edward's best line. Can't belive that nobody's smacked Cheney around with some of that stuff before.

quote: I don't think anyone here is saying Edwards did horribly (although we have yet to hear from Gian), but he could have--should have--done better.

Yeah we have, he sent Pekka a PM and Pekka posted it. He said that Cheney destroyed Edwards.

quote: he interrupted Cheney once

Yeah, what was up with that?

And I loved how when they had the campaign managers on after the debate the Kerry/Edwards one completely refused to answer a question about Edward's Senate record twice

	06-10-2004 08:23									#34
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quote: Declining to answer can work.

Sometimes it can, such as when he simply thanked Edwards for his comments about Cheney's family. Dick definitely came out the better man in that exchange.

However, declining to answer can also point up the fact that you're caught red-headed, i.e. when Edwards itemized Cheney's Congressional record (Head Start, Meals On Wheels, Nelson Mandela). Cheney's silence after that was deafening.

	06-10-2004 08:24									#35
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You forgot MLK.

	06-10-2004 08:25									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer Sometimes it can, such as when he simply thanked Edwards for his comments about Cheney's family. Dick definitely came out the better man in that exchange. However, declining to answer can also point up the fact that you're caught red-headed, i.e. when Edwards itemized Cheney's Congressional record (Head Start, Meals On Wheels, Nelson Mandela). Cheney's silence after that was deafening.

Same with Edwards on Halliburton, Cheney did **** all to rebut that as well. Too bad Edwards didn't do more of that. He did lose but he got some good stuff in and wasn't embarrassed.

	06-10-2004 08:26									#37
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quote: You forgot MLK.

Of course. Jesus. I can't believe Edwards only brought that up once.

They ought to hit that over and over again in the spin to come.

I'd hit it.

	06-10-2004 08:27									#38
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS...ript/index.html

Here's a transcript for those who want it.

	06-10-2004 08:28									#39
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I think if you're looking at "the expectations game", Edwards clearly won. But if you're looking at who actually won the friggen debate, Cheney clearly won.

	06-10-2004 08:38									#40
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Cheney came off as a chump. He refused to answer questions, he gave two word answers, he was monotonous, he tried to prove Edward's numbers were wrong but Edwards came right back with them, and he looked completely unenthralled the whole time.

Plus he got slammed by the moderator a couple times, like when he said he couldn't answer in 30 seconds and she said "well thats all you've got", or when he said "...Gale... (or whatever her name was)" and she said "...Mr. Vice President...".

He looked really bad and I think America will see that.

	06-10-2004 08:41									#41
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A CNN poll as of right now:

Dick Cheney 18% 27817 votes
John Edwards 77% 120182 votes
Evenly matched 5% 7106 votes
Total: 155105 votes

Big gap.

	06-10-2004 08:42									#42
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn A CNN poll as of right now: Dick Cheney 18% 27817 votes John Edwards 77% 120182 votes Evenly matched 5% 7106 votes Total: 155105 votes Big gap.

wow . . . . . .

	06-10-2004 08:42									#43
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quote: ABC News poll, 509 interviews +/- 4.5 Who won? (among debate viewers) Cheney 43% Edwards 35% Tie 19% Vote preference among debate viewers Before the debate After the debate Bush/Cheney 51% 50% Kerry/Edwards 48% 49% Nader/Camejo <1% 0% Party ID of debate viewers Democrats 31% Republicans 38 Independents 27

quote: CBS News tracked the reactions to tonight's vice-presidential debate of a nationwide panel of 169 uncommitted voters - voters who could change their minds before Election Day. Here are the initial results. This scientific poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 7 percentage points: By 41% to 29%, uncommitted debate watchers say Edwards won the debate tonight.

http://www.dailykos.com/

	06-10-2004 08:42									#44
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And Cheney's closing statement was just godawful.

	06-10-2004 08:42									#45
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quote: A CNN poll as of right now: Dick Cheney 18% 27817 votes John Edwards 77% 120182 votes Evenly matched 5% 7106 votes Total: 155105 votes Big gap.

Internet poll, not reliable.

	06-10-2004 08:43									#46
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I never said that Cheney was perfect, though.

	06-10-2004 08:45									#47
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quote: Vote preference among debate viewers Before the debate After the debate Nader/Camejo <1% 0%

Haha.

As for the CBS poll, thats only 500 people, I suspect it will even out to look more like the CNN one once more people vote. the CNN one has 150k+ people there.

	06-10-2004 08:47									#48
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The CNN poll's an internet poll. So it means absolutely nothing. Besides the fact that Kerry supporters have flooded the poll.

This was a probably a fair victory for Edwards, but nowhere close to that margin.

	06-10-2004 08:47									#49
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The ABC poll doesn't surprise me at all, save the fact that they seemed to oversample Republicans and/or undersample Democrats.

The CBS data stuns the everloving **** outta me. I'm really puzzled on how a fairly large margin of undecided voters thought Edwards won the debate...

	06-10-2004 08:48									#50
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The expectations game and style.

	06-10-2004 08:52									#51
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Hey, I'm glad they think that Edwards won, but come on... who cares about expectations? That's how Bush "won" the debates in 2000.

	06-10-2004 09:00									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo The CNN poll's an internet poll. So it means absolutely nothing. Besides the fact that Kerry supporters have flooded the poll. This was a probably a fair victory for Edwards, but nowhere close to that margin.

Yeah, and CNN gets alot of international viewers who won't affect the election at all.

But a 78% vote is at least an indication if nothing else.

	06-10-2004 09:03									#53
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Wasn't able to watch but listened on the radio (can't judge on visuals)

But from what I heard I would say slightly larger margin of victory to Cheney over Edwards than the victory of Kerry over Bush

Kerry B
Bush D

Cheney - B+ maybe even A-
Edwards D maybe D+

	06-10-2004 09:03									#54
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quote: quote: ABC News poll, 509 interviews +/- 4.5 Who won? (among debate viewers) Cheney 43% Edwards 35% Tie 19%

That sounds about right. I wonder what lines will be pounced on in the post-debate spin in the way that "global test" was on the first debate. I hope they do some good work with Edwards talking about Cheney's voting record.

	06-10-2004 09:04									#55
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Cheney DID make one factual screwup during the debate. He presumably meant to suggest that voters check out www.factcheck.org in order to bolster one of the points he made, but he actually told voters to go to www.factcheck.com , an address that sends that redirects the browser to www.GeorgeSoros.com , a website bashing President Bush and talking about why American should vote for John Kerry!

	06-10-2004 09:05									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Wasn't able to watch but listened on the radio (can't judge on visuals) But from what I heard I would say slightly larger margin of victory to Cheney over Edwards than the victory of Kerry over Bush Kerry B Bush D Cheney - B+ maybe even A- Edwards D maybe D+

Ah, what a difference seeing the thing makes. Edwards definately "looked" better than Bush so I think from a television-watching point of view Cheney's victory was definately narrower than Kerry's, the first polls we're seeing are bearing this out.

	06-10-2004 09:08									#57
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Of what I saw, Edwards was just barely keeping up with Cheney. Cheney can talk. He knows what the hell he's saying. Edwards does too, but Cheney's been doing it about twice as long as Edwards has. Although a couple of times he dropped the silence bomb, Cheney still held things together. I give Cheney an A and Edwards an A-. For debate, not for content, mind you.

There were moments when Cheney avoided the question or something, but that's content.

so far:

Last thursday
Kerry A
Bush C

Today
Edwards A-
Cheney A

	06-10-2004 09:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Wasn't able to watch but listened on the radio (can't judge on visuals) But from what I heard I would say slightly larger margin of victory to Cheney over Edwards than the victory of Kerry over Bush Kerry B Bush D Cheney - B+ maybe even A- Edwards D maybe D+

	06-10-2004 09:13									#59
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has anyone posted this picture yet?

	06-10-2004 09:17									#60
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Oh, and as for expecatations, I very well expected Bush to screw up. But I expected Cheney to be one slick sum*****, and sure as hell he was.

But Edwards disappointed me. I figgered he'd come through and send the old man into cardiac arrest. It isn't like he can't. There's gotta be dirt on Cheney. Either way though he just didn't keep up the pace completely. And when he was interrupting. I was like, "What the hell are you doing!?" But maybe he just can't keep it down. Up against a flow of BS like Cheney, I'm sure it must be hard.

In conclusion, everyone lined up with my expectations except Edwards.