06-10-2004 12:20									#91
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To Cheney and Edwards:

	06-10-2004 12:28									#92
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I would like to hear the reaction of non Americans when Cheney used El Salvador as a shining example of freedom under his watch.

	06-10-2004 13:44									#93
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just a question :

does anybody have an idea of the number of undecided voters state wise ?

because, the way i see it (from a safe distance ) nobody who has already made up his mind is going to change is vote.

	06-10-2004 13:46									#94
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quote: The decision is in. Another debate victory for the Democrats.

What the....?!?!?!

	06-10-2004 15:39									#95
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New article up on www.factcheck.org about the debate:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272

Some really good stuff there about how the candidates got so much stuff wrong, including the name of www.factcheck.org

Damn do I love that website.

	06-10-2004 16:13									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Edan To Cheney and Edwards:

Damn straight. When I heard Cheney say, "Our most important ally in the war on terror, in Iraq specifically, is Prime Minister Allawi" I nearly flipped on behalf of our Polish comrades. How could he forget their contribution?

	06-10-2004 17:34									#97
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the polish voters block is very important

JM

	06-10-2004 18:58									#98
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cheney's a dirty Liar. CHENEY: The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight. Hi gang!

Now, now . . . . . to be fair, we need to take Cheney's old age into consideration.


Maybe the old fart just simply forgot about that first meeting.

	06-10-2004 19:01									#99
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quote: the polish voters block is very important

That may have been said in jest, but in fact it's true. Pennsylvania, Ohio, and the rest of the industrial midwest are riddled with people with Polish ancestry. I'm not sure how many identify with Poland the country, but it's certainly more than identify with France the country, for instance.

	06-10-2004 19:01									#100
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Actually, they met 3 times before last night, and Cheney addressed Edwards by name and sat next to him for 3 hours at the prayer breakfast.

If it's senility, fine, but that doesn't help his case for being VP.

	06-10-2004 19:02									#101
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Now, now . . . . . to be fair, we need to take Cheney's old age into consideration. Maybe the old fart just simply forgot about that first meeting.

Maybe their first meeting was very short and they did not have the chance to actually talk and get to know each other.

	06-10-2004 19:02									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov If it's senility, fine, but that doesn't help his case for being VP.

true that

	06-10-2004 19:03									#103
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Maybe their first meeting was very short and they did not have the chance to actually talk and get to know each other.

quote: Actually, they met 3 times before last night, and Cheney addressed Edwards by name and sat next to him for 3 hours at the prayer breakfast.

Cheney made a bald-faced lie, and you know it.

He was also being, at the very least, quite misleading in his characterization of his visits to Congress. As the Democratic caucus points out, they rarely ever see Cheney, as when he does go to the Hill, it is usually to seclude himself with the GOP caucus and plot strategy. It's not as if he's there on the floor of the Senate in his official duty as the president of the Senate, which he implied.

	06-10-2004 19:11									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Damn do I love that website.

Apparently a lot of other people do as well. Thier server is too busy for me to read any of thier pages right now.

	06-10-2004 19:35									#105
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The debate to me was a draw

Cheney seemed to alternate between being the knowledgeable grandfather (sweater and a pipe would be appropriate) and being a grumpy old man

Edwards came across as a bright young whippersnapper

On substance I thought that Edwards was ahead until they got to the question of why "you" are qualified and were not supposed to use the presidential candidates name-- Edwards seeme to be fumbling a bit there. Closings went to Edwards by a hair. Also it seemed to me that like the Doonebury cartoons suggest, 9-11 is the answer to every problem. Thats why the economy sucks etc.

I did not think Edwards handled the question of his lack of experience very well. Why can't a candidate simply indicate that they don't believe that a long long record of public service is NOT necessary to gain skills necessary for the job. That leadership skills learned in the private sector, added to senatorial experience and some good fresh ideas make him qualified for the job

----------------------------------------------------

So overall a draw . .. I don't think anyone won much and the partisans on each side are too busy cheering to care what really happened
-------

Oh the NBC affiliate out of Spokane Wash indicated they did a telephone survey after the debate that indicated

Edwards clearly won 43%
Cheney clearly won 38%
Too close to call 19%

They indicated it was a "random" survey accurate to +- 4% . They then went on to a couple of other poll numbers indicating Dems doing well so I wondered if the debate results were a result of a dem leaning in the state

edit- left out a NOT

	06-10-2004 19:53									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Cheney made a bald-faced lie, and you know it.

I will concede that point.

quote: He was also being, at the very least, quite misleading in his characterization of his visits to Congress. As the Democratic caucus points out, they rarely ever see Cheney, as when he does go to the Hill, it is usually to seclude himself with the GOP caucus and plot strategy. It's not as if he's there on the floor of the Senate in his official duty as the president of the Senate, which he implied.

I think you are reading too much into what Cheney said. He simply said that he's president of the senate and comes in most tuesdays. That's true. I am sure if Democrat senators wanted to meet with Cheney, they could.

	06-10-2004 19:58									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker I would like to hear the reaction of non Americans when Cheney used El Salvador as a shining example of freedom under his watch.

Well, it was just proving the point he is a closet fascist who deserves to be strung up by the B'zudrukka

	06-10-2004 20:01									#108
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I think overall it was about a dead heat in terms of content.

Cheney tended to not comment on issues a noticeable amount of the time or totally change the context (such as the Coalition vs. Coalition + Iraqi causalties). Edwards wasn't able too much better, though, and this is important, he was able to show that Cheney was lying or twisting the truth many times (coalition causalties, voting records--80-some votes against defense compared to over 1000 votes in favor). This plays well into how Kerry shaped the last debate. Cheney came out a little ahead in the first half, and a little behind in the second.

Appearence-wise/appeal-to-voters Edwards won. Domestic issues are almost always more important in determining who wins (that's how the independents are). Edwards came out far ahead here, and I think many of you have missed that. While just judging from what is said *without*context from outside you might think it was a tie or that one candidate was a little ahead of the other.

However, Americans, in fact, are not doing that well. Almost all of the new jobs pay less and have less benefits than the jobs they replace. Additionally if you work more than 10 hours a week or aren't looking for a job, then you are *not* counted as being unemployed. Edwards made a very strong appeal to the voters here, whereas Cheney (as is the case with the Bush Administration) didn't seem to understand the plight of the average American. Most Americans aren't running a small business, for example, and the vast majority earn a lot less than 200k a year. It was this frank talk about jobs, among other things, that will cause Edwards to look a lot better to the undecided voters and the voters with employment problems now.

That's why the result of this debate is likely to be an overall win for Edwards, and I think this explains some of the issues you guys have been uncertain about.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 20:06									#109
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Ok, who was debating again?

	06-10-2004 20:24									#110
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Cheney "lying" about meeting Kerry for the first time is about as important as the pen (or whatever) that Kerry took out during his debate that breached the rules. I didn't see much of it, but I did not like how Edwards was during the debate, although I can't really put my finger on it. Not that I loved what I saw of Cheney, but with him I expected to see a Bush man and that's what I got.

	06-10-2004 20:25									#111
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quote: Ok, who was debating again?

Ted Striker and me .

	06-10-2004 20:32									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Cheney "lying" about meeting Kerry for the first time is about as important as the pen (or whatever) that Kerry took out during his debate that breached the rules.

Actually I think it is a little more important that the pen thing. I just have visions of attack ads with that quote and then pictures of them sitting down to breakfast. Follow that with a few Cheney quotes on Iraq and the "ya right".

To me, even if it was an attempt to be funny, it isn't that bright to say something so obviously false. There is no spin here-- he said something that was obviously and absolutely false.

People expect some misrepresentations and slanting of positions but obvious lies can soemtimes hurt

	06-10-2004 20:38									#113
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I'm sure the Republicans could make just as huge a fuss out of the pen thing, since it is cheating technically, but they haven't, for a change. And if you're going to take any of the debaters to task for lying, then it'd be nice if it was for the actual issues, not for badly-done banter.

	06-10-2004 20:55									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie I'm sure the Republicans could make just as huge a fuss out of the pen thing, since it is cheating technically, but they haven't, for a change. And if you're going to take any of the debaters to task for lying, then it'd be nice if it was for the actual issues, not for badly-done banter.

Be fair, the pen thing is a pure technicality, and blathering about that would go over very, very poorly with the voter.

Cheney claimed to have never even met Edwards because Edwards is never around. Refuting this would have more merit and look a lot better.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 21:01									#115
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Well, it's a fact that neither Edwards nor Kerry are around the Senate much. Haven't been for a year and a half.

I don't think the dems should pursue this "lie", because all the Bush campaign has to do is continually point to the fact that both Kerry and Edwards haven't cast many votes for a long time, while Bush is busy signing bills and pushing his legislative agenda and Cheney is fulfilling his duties on the Hill like clockwork.

	06-10-2004 21:03									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, it's a fact that neither Edwards nor Kerry are around the Senate much. Haven't been for a year and a half.

Yeah, but there is a very clear reason why they haven't been around. I believe they were busy with something important.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 21:04									#117
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So was Cheney busy. Doesn't mean he hasn't fulfilled his duties in both the spirit and letter of his portfolio. Likewise Bush.

I'd drop it, if I were you. It can only hurt Kerry and Edwards. They have been AWOL for a while now.

	06-10-2004 21:07									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DanS So was Cheney busy. Doesn't mean he hasn't fulfilled his duties in both the spirit and letter of his portfolio. Likewise Bush. I'd drop it, if I were you. It can only hurt Kerry and Edwards.

It's a lot easier for Cheney and the President to move around.

I admit it isn't a big issue though; there are far more important things to discuss.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 21:10									#119
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quote: It's a lot easier for Cheney and the President to move around.

That's not so. Indeed, because of the security and the necessity of ensuring presidential succession, it's much less easy for Cheney and the President to move around.

Sounds to me like Kerry and Edwards were busy chasing their own ambitions and not doing the real work alotted to them. I doubt Kerry and Edwards have made 20% of their votes over the last year and a half. At a minimum, they should return their Senate salaries to the congress.

	06-10-2004 21:11									#120
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Definitely. It's about as important as the pen-thing, as I said, in the "Who cares, let's move on to more important things that are actually relevent" sense.