06-10-2004 21:17									#121
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quote: Originally posted by DanS That's not so. Indeed, because of the security and the necessity of ensuring presidential succession, it's much less easy for Cheney and the President to move around.

If anything the manner of any movement difficulties they might have would allow them to be in the White House more. It would always be easy to move back there, even if going out might be hard (but it would probably just be more expensive and require a bit more forward planning, if anything).

As for the voting issue, it is quite possible that Kerry and Edwards knew their two votes wouldn't make any difference, and hence felt comfortable staying out. Besides, it is pretty clear they believe that there are much bigger things at stake than a few votes here and there (especially if it would changing the outcome of a Bill).

Anyhow, it is very, very common for Senators running for President to be out campaigning and have little time to be at Senate meetings. That's just how it is and has been. Kerry and Edwards have done nothing unsual. If such people stayed in the Senate all the time during while running then they'd never win. That's cold, hard reality. What you are saying is that they were neglecting their duties in the Senate, which is strictly speaking true. However, they were not neglecting their greater duty to America and Democracy, which is to give and inform voters of their choice come Election Day.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 21:24									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Definitely. It's about as important as the pen-thing, as I said, in the "Who cares, let's move on to more important things that are actually relevent" sense.

You are speaking about American politics, you do realize?

	06-10-2004 21:31									#123
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quote: ... you gotta remember that this election will not be decided by testosterone-driven hardasses. The winner of the election will be determined by waffling late-deciders who will very likely vote their emotions. Because Cheney comes across like an unrelenting a--hole, he drives away that kind of voter. Edwards won the debate, no question.

In that sense, yes, sunshine Johnny did pwn Cheney in the debate. However in the whole who actually had a better argument and refuted hte most points, it goes to the ogre.

	06-10-2004 21:31									#124
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According to Democracy Corps, Cheney won 40-37. However:

1. Among Independents, Edwards won 37-34
2. In battleground states, Edwards won 40-38
3. And most importantly, Edwards won 43-25 among undecideds. The only other poll among undecideds, CBS had Edwards winning with a comparable margin (12 points).

http://democracycorps.com/reports/a...ate_Release.pdf

	06-10-2004 21:33									#125
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From factcheck.org (not .com ):

quote: Cheney got our domain name wrong -- calling us "FactCheck.com" -- and wrongly implied that we had rebutted allegations Edwards was making about what Cheney had done as chief executive officer of Halliburton. In fact, we did post an article pointing out that Cheney hasn't profited personally while in office from Halliburton's Iraq contracts, as falsely implied by a Kerry TV ad. But Edwards was talking about Cheney's responsibility for earlier Halliburton troubles. And in fact, Edwards was mostly right.

PWNED!!!!

	06-10-2004 22:01									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Yeah, but there is a very clear reason why they haven't been around. I believe they were busy with something important. -Drachasor

Besides doing their job

	06-10-2004 22:05									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor If anything the manner of any movement difficulties they might have would allow them to be in the White House more. It would always be easy to move back there, even if going out might be hard (but it would probably just be more expensive and require a bit more forward planning, if anything). As for the voting issue, it is quite possible that Kerry and Edwards knew their two votes wouldn't make any difference, and hence felt comfortable staying out. Besides, it is pretty clear they believe that there are much bigger things at stake than a few votes here and there (especially if it would changing the outcome of a Bill). Anyhow, it is very, very common for Senators running for President to be out campaigning and have little time to be at Senate meetings. That's just how it is and has been. Kerry and Edwards have done nothing unsual. If such people stayed in the Senate all the time during while running then they'd never win. That's cold, hard reality. What you are saying is that they were neglecting their duties in the Senate, which is strictly speaking true. However, they were not neglecting their greater duty to America and Democracy, which is to give and inform voters of their choice come Election Day. -Drachasor

If they cannot perform their duties while running for another office then they should resign that office. That goes for people in both parties. In fact, it should be made into law.

	06-10-2004 22:11									#128
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That's nonsense. Senators should be forced to resign, and be replaced by unelected appointees of the Governor, because they can't be arsed to stay in Washington 24/7 to make futile votes against laws they can't stop while campaigning for the Presidency?

	06-10-2004 22:14									#129
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Edwards' hometown newspaper:

http://www.newsobserver.com/politic...p-7958298c.html

quote: CHENEY: "Your hometown newspaper has taken to calling you Senator Gone." (An archive search finds no such reference in The News & Observer.)

	06-10-2004 22:37									#130
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What Cheney said:

quote: Now, in my capacity as vice president, I am the president of Senate, the presiding officer. I'm up in the Senate most Tuesdays when they're in session. The first time I ever met you was when you walked on the stage tonight.

Presidents of the Senate:

quote: 2001 January 30 - Enzi February 6 - Chafee February 13 - Chafee February 27 - Allen March 6 - Burns March 13 - Reid March 20 - DeWine March 27 - Chafee April 3 - Smith April 24 - Chafee May 1 - Chafee May 8 - Chafee May 15 - Frist May 22 - Chafee June 5 - Enzi June 12 - Byrd June 19 - Carper June 26 - Bayh July 10 - Nelson July 17 - Clinton July 24 - Byrd July 31 - Stabenaw September 25 - Wellstone October 2 - Clinton October 9 - Clinton October 16 - Edwards October 23- Byrd October 30 - Bingaman November 13 - Murray November 27 - Jeffords December 4 - Stabenaw December 11 - Carnahan December 18 - Nelson 2002 Tue 1/29 - Nelson Tue 2/5 - Kohl Tue 2/12 - Stabenow Tue 2/26 - Landrieu Tue 3/5 - Edwards Tue 3/12 - Landrieu Tue 3/19 - Miller Tue 4/9 - Cleland Tue 4/16 - Reed Tue 4/23 - Wellstone Tue 4/30 - Nelson Tue 5/7 - Miller Tue 5/14 - Cleland Tue 5/21 - Nelson Tue 6/4 - Durbin Tue 6/11 - Corzine Tue 6/18 - Dayton Tue 6/25 - Landrieu Tue 7/9 - Reed Tue 7/16 - Corzine Tue 7/23 - Reed Tue 7/30 - Clinton Tue 9/3 - Reed Tue 9/10 - Corzine Tue 9/17 - Reid Tue 9/24 - Stabenow Tue 10/1 - Miller Tue 10/8 - Miller Tue 10/15 - Reid Tue 11/12 - Cheney Tue 11/19 - Barkley (MN) 2003 Jan 7 Cheney Jan 14 Stevens Jan 22 Stevens Jan 28 Stevens Feb 4 Stevens Feb 11 Stevens Feb 25 Stevens Mar 4 Stevens Mar 11 Stevens Mar 18 Stevens Mar 25 Stevens Apr 1 Stevens Apr 8 Stevens Apr 29 Stevens May 6 Talent May 13 Ensign May 20 Alexander June 3 Stevens June 10 Stevens June 18 Murkowski June 24 Coleman July 8 Stevens July 15 Stevens July 22 Chaffee July 29 Stevens Sept 2 Stevens Sept 9 Stevens Sept 16 Stevens Sept 23 Stevens Sept 30 Sununu Oct 21 Stevens Oct 28 Stevens Nov 4 Stevens Nov 11 Warner Nov 18 Stevens Dec 9 Stevens 2004 1/20 - Stevens 1/27 - Enzi 2/3 - Stevens 2/10 - Stevens 3/2 - Stevens 3/9 - Hagel 3/16 - Sununu 3/23 - Stevens 3/30 - Ensign 4/6 - Cornyn 4/20 - Stevens 4/27 - Chambliss 5/4 - Stevens 5/11 - Stevens 5/18 - Stevens 6/1 - Stevens 6/8 - Hutchinson 6/15 - Stevens 6/22 - Allard 7/6 - Burns 7/13 - Stevens 7/20 - Enzi 9/7 - Stevens 9/14 - Chafee 9/21 - Enzi 9/28 - Stevens 10/05 - Stevens

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/crecord/index.html

Only twice was Cheney able to fulfill his duties as President of the Senate. In fact, Edwards, supposedly ignoring his duties, had to serve as acting President of the Senate twice because Cheney was so often negligent of his own duties. Does that mean Cheney should resign his office, Sprayber?

	06-10-2004 22:54									#131
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Will you people please stop pointing out Cheney's bald faced lies and incorrect inuendo? Don't you know the man has a weak heart!?

	06-10-2004 23:09									#132
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Will you people please stop pointing out Cheney's bald faced lies and incorrect inuendo? Don't you know the man has a weak heart!?

So, we just shouldn't talk about him then?

I thought any press was good press? : )

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 23:12									#133
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well, its interesting how for the most part everyone saw the first debate as a clear Kerry victory except that douche Novak and the liars at FoxNews, while opinions on this debate differ more significantly.

	06-10-2004 23:23									#134
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quote: Originally posted by GePap well, its interesting how for the most part everyone saw the first debate as a clear Kerry victory except that douche Novak and the liars at FoxNews, while opinions on this debate differ more significantly.

probably because Kerry clearly outperformed Bush while the Cheney-Edwards tussle was much closer-- Cheney did have an air of quiet competence at times but his factual errors detracted from his performance

	06-10-2004 23:25									#135
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quote: Originally posted by GePap well, its interesting how for the most part everyone saw the first debate as a clear Kerry victory except that douche Novak and the liars at FoxNews, while opinions on this debate differ more significantly.

That is interesting true, but not terribly surprising.

People that want a candidate to win tend to have blinders on during the debates. (Not always, just a tendency).

Also, people who are really concerned about Iraq and foreign relations tend to give little thought to domestic issues.

These things and similar influences can cause dramatic differences who you think won. Since the first debate was wholly on foreign policy in general, and Iraq in particular, these types of mind-sets played less of a role. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar situation Friday, though it is quite possible that Kerry will simply look better than Bush on basically all fronts.

Edwards easily won on looking concerned about everyday Americans and knowing there are problems with the new jobs out there and how families are doing. These sorts of things are of primary importance to the average undecided. That's why, for purposes of the election, Edwards had a practical victory.

-Drachasor

	06-10-2004 23:49									#136
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I've been thinking about the debate for a while, and I have to say that Edwards secured a much bigger win than I thought last night. It really is remarkable how many lies Cheney trotted out, in comparison to how few lies Edwards trotted out (the only Edwards lie there is, is the $200 billion figure, but Cheney lied about it as well). And this is all playing out on cable news. Combine the Cheney is a big fat liar meme with the more superficial points Edwards scored, and you have a very substantial victory.

	07-10-2004 00:02									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor Edwards easily won on looking concerned about everyday Americans and knowing there are problems with the new jobs out there and how families are doing.

I am tired of hearing how concerned Kerry-Edwards are about average Americans. All we heard from Edwards was doom and gloom the whole time, "life sucks", "jobs are leaving", "healthcare sucks", "education sucks" etc. That is all he said.

	07-10-2004 00:05									#138
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quote: Edwards, supposedly ignoring his duties

In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes.

Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.

	07-10-2004 00:06									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo I've been thinking about the debate for a while, and I have to say that Edwards secured a much bigger win than I thought last night. It really is remarkable how many lies Cheney trotted out, in comparison to how few lies Edwards trotted out (the only Edwards lie there is, is the $200 billion figure, but Cheney lied about it as well). And this is all playing out on cable news. Combine the Cheney is a big fat liar meme with the more superficial points Edwards scored, and you have a very substantial victory.

Edwards also lied about the economy (jobs lost) and Halliburton. Furthermore, all Edwards said was basically doom and gloom, "Iraq sucks", "the economy sucks", "healthcare sucks", "education sucks". Edwards could not offer a single qualification for being vice-president. His main argument was "well but Bush lied". Come on!

Cheney clearly won hands down. He was articulate and clear and he rebutted virtually all of the lame attacks Edwards threw his way.

	07-10-2004 00:07									#140
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my reaction ...

a little less converstaion,
a little more cowbell

	07-10-2004 00:08									#141
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How did Edwards lie about the economy or Halliburton?

	07-10-2004 00:11									#142
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quote: In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes. Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.

Yes, they clearly should've made futile votes against the Republican controlled gov't on the principle of it, or some bullshit like that. This here is a partisan strawman.

	07-10-2004 00:12									#143
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As I just said, regarding Halliburton, Cheney's OWN SOURCE said this:

quote: Cheney got our domain name wrong -- calling us "FactCheck.com" -- and wrongly implied that we had rebutted allegations Edwards was making about what Cheney had done as chief executive officer of Halliburton. In fact, we did post an article pointing out that Cheney hasn't profited personally while in office from Halliburton's Iraq contracts, as falsely implied by a Kerry TV ad. But Edwards was talking about Cheney's responsibility for earlier Halliburton troubles. And in fact, Edwards was mostly right.

	07-10-2004 00:17									#144
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quote: Originally posted by DanS In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes. Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs.

I fail to see how Bush's tour of the United States in 2000 helped Texas's infrastructure at all.

	07-10-2004 00:20									#145
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The difference is that Kerry and Edwards aren't doing their jobs. Me and and all of the other American taxpayers should be reimbursed for services paid for, but not delivered to us.

	07-10-2004 00:23									#146
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Is there anything more pointless than the VP debate?

Remember 1988? Bentsen pretty much destroyed Quayle, but did it help Dukakis? Nope.

	07-10-2004 00:24									#147
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Re:Senate Records
Ramo, I just got up and saw that. I knew Cheney was lying about his record and that of Edward's, but dai-yam. How embarassing.

	07-10-2004 00:25									#148
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Look, you guys can have your own opinions on this, but mark these words:

Polls in a few days will show that Edwards had a much larger impact on undecided voters than Cheney did.

If I am wrong on this, then I'll apologize, but I wager I am quite correct.

While there were mistatements on both sides, overall Cheney erred more than Edwards. On the economy and jobs, Edwards delivered a much more powerful presentation, and overall it wasn't wrong.

The Jobs figure was accurate in a number of ways. While it doesn't account for the number of jobs that have been created, it is the number of jobs lost. It is unfortunate he didn't go into this further, as the newly created jobs have less benefits, less pay, and in many cases less hours than the jobs they replace. The job recovery is very deceptive. I would note that in June when people were trumpeting about new jobs, they missed some very important data: The number of hours worked did not change. What can you conclude when the number of jobs increase and the number of hours doesn't? Full-time jobs are being turned into part-time. Of course, Team Bush doesn't acknowledge any problem, so they won't try to make the job situation better.

As for Haliburton, there is only one thing he was wrong about; they had to be given some sort of contract without a bid, because it was determined no one else could do that job. However, Cheney is still responsible for the bad accounting practices when he was in charge, and Haliburten is indeed under investigation while no money is being withheld as the law demands.

As for the "absence" of the Senators, as I have said before, they had a greater duty. If you somehow think no Senator should ever run for office, then you are flat-out wrong. It is essential that they must miss most of the votes, that's simply how it works. Cheney was hardly ever there too. It is far, far more important to give people a choice in the election than to attend every single vote that is done in the Senate. What is being done this year has always been done, and Kerry and Edwards are no different in this. For you to somehow think Kerry and Edwards shouldn't do their duty to the American people by giving them a real choice in the election, is an grossly unfair and a mischaracterization of how Presidential elections work. This is not an issue that is worth making a big fuss over, and by bringing it up it comes across as people grasping at straws because they don't like how there is a big debate over who should be elected this November.

You might have a legitimate issues with how this has worked in the past and how it is working now, but this isn't a fault you should be pinning on Edwards or Kerry. If you want to argue about how the system is imperfect, then that is another matter. Frankly, it is a tricky situation since Senators cannot give votes while they are away and it is quite possibly even more undemocratic for a governer selected (and not elected) official to replace them.

If you want to argue against the Kerry/Edwards ticket, please do us the curteousy of arguing real issues, not made-up ones that are just distortions.

Oh, and Kerry/Edwards are not "doom and gloom" over the economy. They have a detailed plan on how to deal with the problem, and they see that there *is* a problem. Ignoring the problem doesn't make it go away. Bush and Cheney will not win if they don't even acknowledge the difficulty many Americans are having. Kerry/Edwards acknowledge that difficulty, but far from doom and gloom, they have plans to solve the problem and make life better. To say that advocating solutions to problems is broadcasting "doom and gloom" is a backwards view; it says you can never identify and solve problems, because identifying them is being full of "doom and gloom"; and remember, Bush/Cheney do not think there is a problem.

-Drachasor

	07-10-2004 00:28									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: In 2004, Kerry has missed at least 90% of his Senate votes. Edwards has missed at least 50% of his Senate votes. Clearly, these jokers are AWOL and not doing their jobs. Yes, they clearly should've made futile votes against the Republican controlled gov't on the principle of it, or some bullshit like that. This here is a partisan strawman.

The fact is that you cannot say you support something and then not even bother to vote for that thing you claim to support so much.

	07-10-2004 00:46									#150
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat The fact is that you cannot say you support something and then not even bother to vote for that thing you claim to support so much.

So you have to show up to make a losing vote in Washington instead of speaking about the same isue in California, Idaho or Maine. Why??


I'm guessing we could find senators (Repubs or Dems) that missed lots of votes for far less laudable reasons than seeking the presidency.

To me this a non-issue unless you just want to hand elections to incumbents since all sitting senators would be precluded. I'm sure if someone resigned their senate seat to run, there would be a negative spin on that as well