08-10-2004 03:54									#301
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yes granted. But then doesn't it follow that our desires for these limited goods/services mean that our desires set their value as we compete with each other to fulfill said desires?

I don't know if you set a value. I think you are talking about price.

	08-10-2004 03:56									#302
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So we are debating about something that is all smoke and mirrors then?

	08-10-2004 03:57									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho If somebody puts in the work and nobody wants the product then that work is valueless correct?

Grey area. There are examples where that is not true.

	08-10-2004 03:58									#304
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You said this Kid:

"All value is created by work."

However, if work can be performed without creating value than I would argue that value can be created without performing work. SInce you have not show how work is related to value, since it CAN be all of the value or none of it, it should be reasoned that work can be some of the value.

	08-10-2004 03:59									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho So we are debating about something that is all smoke and mirrors then?

Why do you say that? And why didn't you answer the question that I gave you about savings and value.

	08-10-2004 03:59									#306
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Money is what the value of the work is paid in within society. Even in the barter economy people worked for so many hours a week producing say tomato's and somebody down the road spent so many hours rearing cows and then at some point in time they trade. Say four cows to 50 Kgs of tomato's. Now these two have bartered and arrived at an acceptable value for the work they put in.

	08-10-2004 04:00									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Japher You said this Kid: "All value is created by work." However, if work can be performed without creating value than I would argue that value can be created without performing work. SInce you have not show how work is related to value, since it CAN be all of the value or none of it, it should be reasoned that work can be some of the value.

There's a problem with your logic there. Just because all value is created by work, doesn't mean that work always creates value.

	08-10-2004 04:03									#308
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quote: And why didn't you answer the question that I gave you about savings and value.

Sorry missed it.

quote: Saving money does not create value. Spending money is what stimulates work, which in turn creates value. Are we together on this or should we go into this?

Saving money can stimulate work as well because the banks lend the money you save out as investments. But generally I agree with spending stimulating work. It creates value but that value is only measureable by money because of the monetary system.

	08-10-2004 04:04									#309
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I recognize that kid... and my first sentence after the quote acknowledges that.

Value = Work + Unknown

-Work
@ Unknown=-Work, desire = 0, indicating that Value=0

@ Unknown=0, Value=work

However, I am stipulating that the Unknown is not a point value that is either true or false, -work or 0... I am saying that there are values that fall in between that can decrease and increase tha value.

	08-10-2004 04:06									#310
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quote: Just because all value is created by work, doesn't mean that work always creates value.

So how are we supposed to know whether to attribute value to some work? Through our desires for that work. Following from this our desires for a product only stretch as far as our ability to get the product. In this society that requires money. Therefore our desires create price which in turn create value.

	08-10-2004 04:06									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Money is what the value of the work is paid in within society.

Only work that is performed for pay.

quote: Even in the barter economy people worked for so many hours a week producing say tomato's and somebody down the road spent so many hours rearing cows and then at some point in time they trade. Say four cows to 50 Kgs of tomato's. Now these two have bartered and arrived at an acceptable value for the work they put in.

The cattle rancher has satisfied the tomato farmers desires and the tomato farmer has satisfied the cattle ranchers desires so value has been created. The price is arbitrary.

	08-10-2004 04:08									#312
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Yes but in the case what is the value of the both products separately from one another?

They have no value untill they meet together in a market and attribute value to one another.

	08-10-2004 04:08									#313
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Saving money can stimulate work as well because the banks lend the money you save out as investments. But generally I agree with spending stimulating work. It creates value but that value is only measureable by money because of the monetary system.

No. Investing stimulates work. Imagine an economy where all the money was saved.

	08-10-2004 04:11									#314
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Yeah it would stagnate. But I was just pointing out that some savings goes back out into the economy in the form of bank loans. Why do you think banks crash when everyone goes in and tries to draw all their money out at the same time?


EDIT: Bad sentence structure.

	08-10-2004 04:12									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I recognize that kid... and my first sentence after the quote acknowledges that. Value = Work + Unknown -Work @ Unknown=-Work, desire = 0, indicating that Value=0 @ Unknown=0, Value=work However, I am stipulating that the Unknown is not a point value that is either true or false, -work or 0... I am saying that there are values that fall in between that can decrease and increase tha value.

That's not true if work is greater than value. I'm a little confused though. Your notation is strange to me.

	08-10-2004 04:13									#316
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I think it might be mathematical notation.

	08-10-2004 04:15									#317
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yeah, something ain't right... I'll mull it over.

I did mean -work
a second boundry condition would exist of

0

	08-10-2004 04:18									#318
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damn it ain't working!

- work < unknown < 0

and 2nd

0 < unknown < ?

	08-10-2004 04:19									#319
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho So how are we supposed to know whether to attribute value to some work? Through our desires for that work.

Yes.

quote: Following from this our desires for a product only stretch as far as our ability to get the product.

No. Why? Desires are greater than value. Value is created when we satisfy a desire. Potential value is stored in goods that may be able to satisfy a desire in the future.

quote: In this society that requires money. Therefore our desires create price which in turn create value.

Oh dear. See where this has got you. I've already established that value can be created independent of any price with the pancakes example.

	08-10-2004 04:21									#320
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you can't use the greater than or less than signs. I've run into that problem before.

	08-10-2004 04:22									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah it would stagnate. But I was just pointing out that some savings goes back out into the economy in the form of bank loans. Why do you think banks crash when everyone goes in and tries to draw all their money out at the same time? EDIT: Bad sentence structure.

Yes, they crash, but what causes the economic catastrophe is the decrease in spending.

	08-10-2004 04:22									#322
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quote: Oh dear. See where this has got you. I've already established that value can be created independent of any price with the pancakes example.

Yes you have but thats in the individual case, where your own work goes towards satisfying your own desires. What about work that is for other people.

quote: No. Why? Desires are greater than value. Value is created when we satisfy a desire. Potential value is stored in goods that may be able to satisfy a desire in the future.

Ok yes true. Desires + Unknown = value

	08-10-2004 04:23									#323
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quote: Yes, they crash, but what causes the economic catastrophe is the decrease in spending.

Yeah ok, I agree with you that spending promotes work.

	08-10-2004 04:26									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yes you have but thats in the individual case, where your own work goes towards satisfying your own desires. What about work that is for other people.

What about it? If I created value by satisfying my own desire, then why are you saying that I'm not creating value by satisfying your desire?

quote: Ok yes true. Desires + Unknown = value

I don't know where you guys are trying to go with these equations, but it doesn't look like you are establishing that desire creates value. Just because something is greater than something else doesn't mean that it creates it.

	08-10-2004 04:28									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yeah ok, I agree with you that spending promotes work.

Ok, I want to go somewhere with this, but I want to go to the store right now, and then I will probably go to class.

	08-10-2004 04:29									#326
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quote: If I created value by satisfying my own desire, then why are you saying that I'm not creating value by satisfying your desire?

You are on both counts. However satisfying your desire doesn't result in money being exchanged. Money has to be exchanged when your work satisfies somebody else's desire.

Desire is just one aspect that goes towards establishing that value.

	08-10-2004 04:30									#327
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quote: Ok, I want to go somewhere with this, but I want to go to the store right now, and then I will probably go to class.

Sweet. I'll eargely await your return. I must also depart to to the CBD of this town. Thankfully I have no class today.

	08-10-2004 04:46									#328
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If you really want to get him going, Flip, get on about innovations. He believes if you develop away to create more tomatoes in the same amount of time than the cost of the cow cost twice as many tomatoes.

	08-10-2004 05:05									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Japher If you really want to get him going, Flip, get on about innovations. He believes if you develop away to create more tomatoes in the same amount of time than the cost of the cow cost twice as many tomatoes.

God help me, I followed that flawlessly the first time through.

	08-10-2004 05:14									#330
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I think I continue with Kid just to entertain myself