07-10-2004 09:14									#211
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Ah, I haven't gotten into it with the deluded one for a quite a while, so I didn't know who was ripping him a new one .

	07-10-2004 09:16									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok how about this. Labour has no inherent value because the monetary system in which this value resides is an artificial construct and as such has an artificial value in monetary terms given to it by market forces i.e. supply and demand.

Sounds to me like you are talking about wages not the value of labor. Here's the difference. Everything is created by work. The sum of the price of everything is the value of that work. Wages are just what has been decided in the market as compensation for labor. Either way you look at it labor has in inherent value.

	07-10-2004 09:18									#213
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Ok then, but how do you measure that inherent value? and for that matter what the hell is that inherent value?

If there is no way to measure that inherent value then what are we debating for? Besides the fact that i'm bored.

	07-10-2004 09:20									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Cars are created with labor, Imran. Duh. They are also created with capital, Solomwi. Duh. Try to build a car without capital and see how well it turns out .

That's entirely possible Imran.

	07-10-2004 09:21									#215
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Well if you wanna get into the nitty gritties you'd need capital somewhere in the process, even if its just to make the steel for the car or something. Though I agree it's possible to make a car without capital.

	07-10-2004 09:22									#216
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Woooo... wooden cars... we pedal with our feet like the Flintstones!

Where did the steel body originally come from? What about the parts? The muffler? The engine? Oh, I forgot, the automakers have one guy in the back with a hammer making these things .

	07-10-2004 09:22									#217
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Ok then, but how do you measure that inherent value? and for that matter what the hell is that inherent value?

Money is fine. If labor creates all value then the inherent value of labor is the aggregate production of all goods and services in the economy. Right?

	07-10-2004 09:24									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Woooo... wooden cars... we pedal with our feet like the Flintstones! Where did the steel body originally come from? What about the parts? The muffler? The engine? Oh, I forgot, the automakers have one guy in the back with a hammer making these things .

I meant financial capital. That's what we're talking about. Try to stay with me.

	07-10-2004 09:26									#219
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So with money you are talking about wages yes?

But labour isn't the aggregate production of all goods and services. Other factors go into making those goods and services. Hell certain services like parking meters for example don't even need labourers. Parking meters are apart of the aggregate goods and services. So no, not right.

	07-10-2004 09:29									#220
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quote: I meant financial capital. That's what we're talking about.

No, we were talking about your ridiculous assertion that labor is the only production function that matters in value creation.

Redefining the debate when you've lost? Frankly I can't say I'm suprised .

	07-10-2004 09:31									#221
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I meant financial capital. That's what we're talking about. No, we were talking about your ridiculous assertion that labor is the only production function that matters in value creation. Redefining the debate when you've lost? Frankly I can't say I'm suprised .

I'm the creator of this thread idiot. I define the debate. You're the redefiner.

	07-10-2004 09:35									#222
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When the almightly thread starter realizes he has lost the debate, he can redefine it in whatever way he wishes and say that is the 'true' defintion. Befitting a communist.

Btw, you defined the debate in your first post, saying "only work creates value" (which was the point of that small first sentance). Oh, and the thread doesn't belong to you and the debate can be defined with or without you.

Sorry, I hope your overinflated ego can take it .

	07-10-2004 09:36									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho So with money you are talking about wages yes?

No. Money can be used to measure the value of labor. Wages certainly are not the measure of the value of labor, only the price paid for labor.

quote: But labour isn't the aggregate production of all goods and services. Other factors go into making those goods and services. Hell certain services like parking meters for example don't even need labourers. Parking meters are apart of the aggregate goods and services. So no, not right.

Ah... Parking meters don't create value. That's not the kind of thing I'm talking about. I'm talking about productive work. There is all kinds of work that produces very little or no value. Like sales. I used to sell Kirby vacumms. The managers used to tell us to create value when we were selling the vacumms. The vacumms cost $1700. Holy ****! They aren't worth that much. That's not creating value. It's just ripping people off.

	07-10-2004 09:38									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When the almightly thread starter realizes he has lost the debate, he can redefine it in whatever way he wishes and say that is the 'true' defintion. Befitting a communist. Btw, you defined the debate in your first post, saying "only work creates value" (which was the point of that small first sentance). Oh, and the thread doesn't belong to you and the debate can be defined with or without you. Sorry, I hope your overinflated ego can take it .

I'm sorry but it still stands that you are trying to redefine the debate. Only losers do that. If you can't win the debate the way it is defined, well ......

	07-10-2004 09:38									#225
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Kid, are you talking about the utility value of the work?

	07-10-2004 09:39									#226
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quote: Wages certainly are not the measure of the value of labor

Of course they are. The price paid for labor is the value of that labor. Defining it any other way is silly and idiotic.

	07-10-2004 09:41									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Kid, are you talking about the utility value of the work?

I'm talking about the utility value of what that work has created.

	07-10-2004 09:41									#228
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quote: I'm sorry but it still states that you are trying to redefine the debate.

Only you would say that arguing about whether labor is the only production function that matters in creation of labor is a redefinition of a debate which started by saying "only work creates value".

You lost... you can save yourself some time by simply admitting it.

	07-10-2004 09:44									#229
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Wages certainly are not the measure of the value of labor Of course they are. The price paid for labor is the value of that labor. Defining it any other way is silly and idiotic.

That's the least sucky argument that you have made so far.

	07-10-2004 09:45									#230
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quote: I'm talking about the utility value of what that work has created.

Well even still, the utility value of that created work is decided by how much people are willing to pay for it. There is just no way to measure the utility value without applying the monetary system and that works on supply and demand.

	07-10-2004 09:48									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I'm sorry but it still states that you are trying to redefine the debate. Only you would say that arguing about whether labor is the only production function that matters in creation of labor is a redefinition of a debate which started by saying "only work creates value". You lost... you can save yourself some time by simply admitting it.

Look it's this simple. I haven't argued that machines aren't used to produce value. That was the argument that you were making. Pretty sad. You already lost by using that defeatist strategy we call strawmanizing.

	07-10-2004 09:53									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Well even still, the utility value of that created work is decided by how much people are willing to pay for it. There is just no way to measure the utility value without applying the monetary system and that works on supply and demand.

I agree that the value of something depends on the scarcity of that good and the benefit that people get from it. My claim is only that the good or service was created by labor, and so therefore the value was too. Determined and/or measured is not the same as created.

	07-10-2004 09:57									#233
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I've got time for one more reply then I'm really going to go to bed.

	07-10-2004 09:58									#234
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But you are still ignoring the fact of all the other factors that go into the production of the good and thereby helping to determine the value.

	07-10-2004 09:59									#235
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quote: I haven't argued that machines aren't used to produce value.

You've argued that "only work creates value". And that ONLY labor can create value. Only seems to imply that capital isn't part of the equation. At least in most English speaking countries .

	07-10-2004 10:10									#236
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho But you are still ignoring the fact of all the other factors that go into the production of the good and thereby helping to determine the value.

Land and labor are the only factors that go into the production of a good and service. Other factors, like rent, go into the price. I'm not ignoring that.

	07-10-2004 10:12									#237
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Well you admit land is a factor of production?

quote: My claim is only that the good or service was created by labor, and so therefore the value was too.

Well then land is also a factor of production so land is a consideration in the value as well. Therefore labour is not the creating of the value as the good or service wasn't just created by labour.

	07-10-2004 10:15									#238
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I think what he means is labor=energy. That seems to be the only way any of his arguments make better sense. Well, I'm off to play SMAX.

	07-10-2004 10:18									#239
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I haven't argued that machines aren't used to produce value. You've argued that "only work creates value". And that ONLY labor can create value. Only seems to imply that capital isn't part of the equation. At least in most English speaking countries .

Labor can create value by doing work more efficiently (i.e. using tools).

	07-10-2004 10:19									#240
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I'd agree with that. But what happens in the instance where a machine is the only factor in production? Or if the only labour involvement is someone standing there makind sure the machine doesn't break down.