07-10-2004 06:34									#181
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quote: We're talking about political idea

Is someone paying for someone else's political ideas? Or are you talking in some indirect fashion? What are you getting at?

quote: Selling assets doesn't increase value either

If the asset is sold at a great price than bought (taking inflation in account) then you can definetly say the value of the good as increased. The economic benefit is that the seller gets more money (which stands for value as no one disputes) than he paid in.

Selling, by itself, doesn't increase value, but usually people won't sell the asset until the value has increased to a level to make a profitable.

Though buying and selling does have an indirect effect on the value of the good because in some small way you affect supply and demand.

	07-10-2004 06:35									#182
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quote: Oh please stop making obvious, irrelevent statements.

For you the obvious is required. As for the irrelevent... that describes your entire debate technique, doesn't it?

	07-10-2004 06:38									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Is someone paying for someone else's political ideas? Or are you talking in some indirect fashion? What are you getting at?

TVM is a political idea, not an idea for a new product or technology. No one wants to buy it. Well you know what I mean, I hope.

quote: If the asset is sold at a great price than bought (taking inflation in account) then you can definetly say the value of the good as increased. The economic benefit is that the seller gets more money (which stands for value as no one disputes) than he paid in.

There is no overall benefit. The cost equals the benefit. The amount that the buyer pays equals the amount that the seller recieves.

	07-10-2004 06:41									#184
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quote: There is no overall benefit. The cost equals the benefit. The amount that the buyer pays equals the amount that the seller recieves.

The benefit is the seller makes more money that he paid for the good. However, that does not mean the buyer is paying more for the good than he would have. Because the seller makes money doesn't mean the buyer is losing.

	07-10-2004 06:43									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Oh please stop making obvious, irrelevent statements.

Does this help:

quote: Start with this. What is this increase in value that you speak of? Nevermind that the owner recieves rent, and therefor becomes richer. I already know this of course, and it's completely irrelevent. Of course, the person who rents the widget is poorer, and that's why. There is no increase in value there, only a transer in wealth.

The person renter the wigdet gets the value of using it for the rental period.

It's like ice cream; you use up your value and then you are out the money, but you still have whatever value you accumlated while you used it.

The person who has the widget during the rental period gets the benefit. It is like ice cream or some good you use up because of this. That has a value of its own.

In a fair economic exchange both people benefit.

If you refering to why the temporary owner doesn't buy the widget, that could well be because he wants most of his money elsewhere, and doesn't want to spend all that money on outright owning the widget. He might need the widget for a period of time, but beyond that he makes more money investing the difference between the buy price and the rent price in the market.

-Drachasor

	07-10-2004 06:47									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The benefit is the seller makes more money that he paid for the good. However, that does not mean the buyer is paying more for the good than he would have. Because the seller makes money doesn't mean the buyer is losing.

There is no winner or loser. Only a transfer.

	07-10-2004 06:49									#187
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quote: There is no winner or loser. Only a transfer.

Yeah... and that transfer can be a benefit to the seller, if he bought the good at a lower level at an earlier time. He had counted on the value of the good increasing and it did.

	07-10-2004 06:51									#188
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor The person renter the wigdet gets the value of using it for the rental period. It's like ice cream; you use up your value and then you are out the money, but you still have whatever value you accumlated while you used it. The person who has the widget during the rental period gets the benefit. It is like ice cream or some good you use up because of this. That has a value of its own. In a fair economic exchange both people benefit. If you refering to why the temporary owner doesn't buy the widget, that could well be because he wants most of his money elsewhere, and doesn't want to spend all that money on outright owning the widget. He might need the widget for a period of time, but beyond that he makes more money investing the difference between the buy price and the rent price in the market. -Drachasor

Do a cost/benefit analysis? Let's take a look at it.

	07-10-2004 06:57									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Yeah... and that transfer can be a benefit to the seller, if he bought the good at a lower level at an earlier time. He had counted on the value of the good increasing and it did.

Leave the other transaction out of it. It's only going to complicate matters. We're going no where with this anyway. You aren't showing me how this is suppose to result in more goods and services being produced.

	07-10-2004 07:01									#190
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quote: You aren't showing me how this is suppose to result in more goods and services being produced.

Was that what I was supposed to show you?

You said value, not how is this supposed to increase goods and services produced. Though it may indirectly, because more oppertunities for rent, will increase that market in an area. For example, more renting of houses in an area will usually lead to developments being constructed at a rapid pace.

	07-10-2004 07:06									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You aren't showing me how this is suppose to result in more goods and services being produced. Was that what I was supposed to show you? You said value, not how is this supposed to increase goods and services produced. Though it may indirectly, because more oppertunities for rent, will increase that market in an area. For example, more renting of houses in an area will usually lead to developments being constructed at a rapid pace.

It would provide an incentive at best. However, the rent paid on the previous property would not create that value anymore than it creates the value of the property that the rent is collected for, only the labor used to build improvements on that property would create the value for that property.

Consider the case where there is no more zoned land for improvements. How is higher rent suppose to create value in this situation? No value is created until work is actually on done property.

	07-10-2004 07:12									#192
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quote: only the labor used to build improvements on that property would create the value for that property.

Bullshit. What about the capital, such as the land itself and the big dirt moving machines, etc, etc? They definetly create value for that property. Labor can't do it alone and neither can capital. They need each other.

quote: How is higher rent suppose to create value in this situation?

Higher price can be asked for the house itself.

Or do you mean how is that supposed to create more goods and services? In your case, the government has prevented rent from indirectly creating more goods and services. That doesn't mean it wouldn't increase the value of the properties already being rented, however.

	07-10-2004 07:22									#193
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AAARRRRGHHHHH!!!!!!

Anyone getting that feeling?

	07-10-2004 07:23									#194
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Well of course... but it is nice to totally destroy Kid's arguments. He'll never change, but as long as you know it, it makes it not that bad.

	07-10-2004 07:23									#195
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yeAH... Price = Value until you add the unfair tax on to it

	07-10-2004 07:26									#196
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Yeah it was a good way to procrastinate earlier this morning (NZ time) instead of writing my essay. Now I've nearly finished so I'm considering procrastinating again. Damn forums.

	07-10-2004 07:28									#197
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I know what you mean. I lose sleep by posting instead of going to bed .

	07-10-2004 07:30									#198
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I lose work by posting... When I get home (like now, it's 730pm), it's family time, drink time, tv time, eat time, sleep time...

	07-10-2004 07:47									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: only the labor used to build improvements on that property would create the value for that property. Bullshit. What about the capital, such as the land itself and the big dirt moving machines, etc, etc? They definetly create value for that property. Labor can't do it alone and neither can capital. They need each other.

The machines were created and operated by labor. Land doesn't create things.

quote: Higher price can be asked for the house itself. Or do you mean how is that supposed to create more goods and services? In your case, the government has prevented rent from indirectly creating more goods and services. That doesn't mean it wouldn't increase the value of the properties already being rented, however.

And the govt might do some rezoning. That doesn't create value. Does the Fed create value by lowering interest rates? No. It provides incentives in the economy for businesses to hire workers, but the workers create all of the value.

	07-10-2004 07:50									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Well of course... but it is nice to totally destroy Kid's arguments. He'll never change, but as long as you know it, it makes it not that bad.

Of course not. None of you have established anything that I disagree with. About all I see here is explainations how people who invest money get a return. No explainations at all about how that creates value.

Again a stawman has been set up and destroyed.

Nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Good night.

	07-10-2004 07:57									#201
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quote: The machines were created and operated by labor.

And without machines the labor, by itself, would be useless in making the complex technological devices we have now.

quote: the workers create all of the value.

No, they don't. Once again, you ignore the vital role of capital in creation of value. When you continue to ignore that you come off even more of an idiot than you did before .

And you persist in this idea that value can be created in someone way physically. The only creation of value comes from the perceptions of individuals.

	07-10-2004 07:58									#202
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quote: Good night.

Off to watch "Lost"? Me too

	07-10-2004 08:42									#203
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The machines were created and operated by labor. And without machines the labor, by itself, would be useless in making the complex technological devices we have now.

This isn't a which came first the chicken or the egg deal. Labor created the machines period.

quote: quote: the workers create all of the value. No, they don't. Once again, you ignore the vital role of capital in creation of value. When you continue to ignore that you come off even more of an idiot than you did before . And you persist in this idea that value can be created in someone way physically. The only creation of value comes from the perceptions of individuals.

I guess you could say that I ignore some of the more ridiculous claims that you make.

Again. Assuming that money creates value to prove that money creates value is a circular argument. But then that's all you have. Still it's pretty said to continually show that you have no argument. Even DanS is smart enough to just spam and keep his fool mouth shut.

	07-10-2004 09:00									#204
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quote: Labor created the machines period.

No, not period. Who cares if labor created the machines? Now the machines/land/capital are just as important, if not more so, than labor. For an example look at how cars are made these days.

quote: Assuming that money creates value to prove that money creates value is a circular argument.

I've assumed money creates value? I thought I was pretty consistent in saying that value comes from prices, ie, the perceptions of people in the market. In fact I said that in the post you quoted. The most I've said is that labor and capital have vital roles in the creation of value. The interplay of them help determine the perceptions of how much value a product has.

Though I guess creating strawmen is nothing new to you .

	07-10-2004 09:01									#205
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quote: Why not? Explain

Ok how about this. Labour has no inherent value because the monetary system in which this value resides is an artificial construct and as such has an artificial value in monetary terms given to it by market forces i.e. supply and demand.

	07-10-2004 09:01									#206
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Cars are created with labor, Imran. Duh.

	07-10-2004 09:05									#207
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quote: Cars are created with labor, Imran. Duh.

They are also created with capital, Solomwi. Duh.

Try to build a car without capital and see how well it turns out .

	07-10-2004 09:06									#208
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Would you like some help with that hook?

	07-10-2004 09:07									#209
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Had to respond, or else Kid may have used that as support for his position .

	07-10-2004 09:08									#210
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Touche. Kid and I have been through it before, though. Surely he wouldn't think I had seen the light.