07-10-2004 17:47									#1
	Clash of the Continents - set up thread Support Apolyton

The North American Mob

Beta, Rhoth, Snoopy & Con



The Down Under Bushrangers
The Wild Colonial Boys

Paddy, Aqualung, McMeadows & MWIA



ok here is our set up thread

lets get our thoughts out and about

we have some great ideas and the opportunity to really have a wild game

the above team names are just what came to mind

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Last edited by Paddy the Scot on 08-10-2004 at 07:59

	07-10-2004 18:02									#2
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After the invite, I've allready done some thinking and it might be an idea to play on a continental map with 2 exaclty the same continents with some bonusses and a minimum of resources and lux.

On 1 continent the Austalian civs will emerge, on the exact same other the American civs. Furthermore there are Islands scattered around (no symmetry in the map) with resources and luxeries. This will put more emphasis on a team effort and cooperation. Off course we would need someone to set up the map.

We could even edit the civs (Queensland (my taking ), New South Wales, Western Australia, New Zealand vs the some of the States from the USA), in order to balance the game to the fullest and fight the battle down to the best team.
Queensland could be agricultural and hmmm agricultural ... Anyway there are 8 traits and I think it would be part of the team planning to devide the traits among the players in the teams. Furthermore the uu's could be based on the excisting ones and just renamed. Also free to the teams to choose.

Both teams might need a private forum to discuss the strategy...

	07-10-2004 19:06									#3
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I don't like the nam,es. Let's think about it!

And you yankee rebels are toast!

	07-10-2004 20:50									#4
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hey Beta is a canuck and Rhoth is from California, so they are north americans but I certainly dont accept them as Americans

The map idea sounds good. We need some kind of a twist to this PBEM to spice it up a bit.

Ideas?????

	07-10-2004 21:12									#5
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 hey Beta is a canuck and Rhoth is from California, so they are north americans but I certainly dont accept them as Americans The map idea sounds good. We need some kind of a twist to this PBEM to spice it up a bit. Ideas?????

This is a team effort con.

I too like the map idea...but I want to change it. It might be interesting to have to divide up a continent between your own team. The only problem I see with it is that it would take quite a while before any interesting conflicts happen. If we all have to wait for astronomy and navigation before anyone can even attack the opposing alliance then this will be slow right from the start. I'd much prefer a pangaea map so we can have the potential conflicts from the start. And I definitely want someone to make the map for us.

One other thing....we should put this on deity level for slower tech progression or we'll be into the industrial age before 1ad.

The names of the teams are fine with me.

	07-10-2004 23:39									#6
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That's kinda contadicting to what you're saying Rhot. On 1 hand tech goes too slow (in order to get a war going), and on the other it goes too fast (on a lower level)?

The whole aspect of the game will be different than what we're used to. We would have to fully cooperate right to the point where the whole continent will develop faster than the other continent (builder conquest). After which we would be able to put our best on the table in combined strategy (warmongering conquest). And therefore it might just be a good suggestion not to put the level too high.

Off course it would take quite a while, but it would be just that twist con is requesting. We're all regular PBEM-players, we've allready accepted that games move slowely...

[EDIT: typo's and clarification]

	08-10-2004 00:31									#7
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quote: Originally posted by McMeadows That's kinda contadicting to what you're saying Rhot. On 1 hand tech goes too slow (in order to get a war going), and on the other it goes too fast (on a lower level)?

No not really. Tech doesn't need to progress to get a war going. You can have one right from the start of the game if you want which is why pangaea's make for more fun than continents in PBEMs (IMHO ). Also you don't need wars to have lots of fun with interesting conflicts between the two sides. In several of my PBEMs the trash talking is almost as much fun as the game.

As to tech progression, with four nations, each combining their tech research on each side, then we will be blowing through the tech tree very quickly. It will get to the point that all the nations are so far ahead in tech that the build queues can't keep up.

But it's up to everyone. If the majority vote is for normal difficulty I won't have a problem with it.

	08-10-2004 02:11									#8
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You correctly pointed out we couldn't get a war going untill at least mapmaking was invented, and probably navigation will be required. That would be too slow a game...
A little later you pointed out we would rush through the tech tree with the combined tech investment. Hence my remark on a slow game due to tech availability...

But let's not get to the word of it, we both know what we intent to say.

The high tech rate will probably lead to interesting choices also for build ques, different from standard game play.

	08-10-2004 03:38									#9
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Heh I guess what I mean is that I want a pangaea map with a low tech rate to get to the interesting conflicts and you want a continents map with high tech rate to get to the interesting conflicts.

Either one will be fine with me as long as we don't end up with a pangaea with a high tech rate or a continents map with a low tech rate.

	08-10-2004 04:26									#10
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love a good discussion

	08-10-2004 04:30									#11
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The original thinking was pangaea. From my early e-mail:

quote: Also - another twist which might be neat is that we stick to culturally similar civs. For example - one team has four asian civs - the other 4 european. My preference is a pangaea map - large. 4 european civs on the western side - and 4 asian civs on the eastern side. Yup that sounds just duckie. I will get alexman or SR to set it up for us.

This is the plan I would like to stick with. I also like Rhoth's suggestion of slowing the tech rate.

And I really like the idea of four asian and four european civs. And each side can only pick one agricultrual civ. (probably Sumeria and Celts)

McM ... to be honest - the continent thing doesn't thrill me. Great builder experiment, but the plan here was a 4 on 4 mud fest, with lots of trash talking.

With Pangaea I can see the exploring and scouting aspect being key. And as we should also enforce the no map trading until it is allowed in game - it is going to be at times one of those exercises in directing the person who is blindfolded. (No No No - I said south of the lake you idiot!)

	08-10-2004 04:31									#12
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 hey Beta is a canuck and Rhoth is from California, so they are north americans but I certainly dont accept them as Americans

Thank the gods!

	08-10-2004 04:46									#13
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so are yee yankees and all going for the asian civs

	08-10-2004 05:08									#14
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Why not just have custom civs, as mcmeadows explains? You pick 2 traits (or 3 or 1 or whatever) and get the sciences those would normally give, and then pick a UU that's just the same thing as another UU in the game (whatever civs uu you want) ...

I think both ideas are sound. The Pangea idea is admittedly more 'normal' and leads to a more traditional mudfest, but the continents does lead towards a more interesting fight later on, and is so very different from the usual game ... Would certainly allow Seafaring to be a more ... valuable trait?

	08-10-2004 05:26									#15
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I hear what you are saying SnoopCat

The only thing I see is the hassle of all the extra work modding up the civs that can take a bit of time If the map planner is up to it then excellent - party on

As to Pangea / Continents, I must admit to liking both ideas and they both have merit - yet the invite asked for Pangea, so I will vote that way

	08-10-2004 06:05									#16
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Civs
I like the idea of having civs modded a little to change our names, titles, city names etc. New Zealanders or similar (I need to decide this) is fine for me, and I would choose Kiwi city and leader etc names. We should probably all come up with the exact things we want, namely:

Civ name, civ colour, leader name, leader titles, city names.

and get the modder to change to these. Then we would also choose our UU and traits. Once we have chosen these two we may need to discuss them here a bit for balance's sake. As for starting techs, as I think it is a bit imbalancing to be able to completely specify all three of UU, traits and techs, I think we should get the starting techs of whatever regular civ has the same UU as that which we choose, just so we don't all choose the most expensive or useful starting techs. Sound fair?

Map considerations

A Pangaea sounds good to me, to make things interesting early on. I have no opinion on the slow/fast tech progression if we go with Pangaea, but if we split the land up, then I do NOT want a slower progression, as the makes things a bit dull, where you have done all your exploring and you're trying to advance through one method or another to keep things interesting.

The idea of having all 4 of one group on each half of the continent or each group having separate continents came I think from my idea, where we either forbid trading with members of the other group, or forbid it as soon as you discover at least one member of your group, at least until everyone knows all of their own group. I thought of this because, for example in the team game of 2xplayer teams, there is some exchange between members of supposed opposing teams. I think this is inevitable for a time, but I would hope we can encourage a team effort rather than just another regular civ game. What do you think of these ideas? Perhaps if each team all started on their own separate half of a Pangaea this would be sufficient to encourage teamwork.

This could require a careful map preparation though, so that the same-team civs were located far enough from each other to be able to build a decent core without running into their teammembers too badly, and with enough of a gap between them and the other team that they would be more likely to contact their own team first. Another idea I have is to make the connection between the two teams not only large, but very valuable, full of specials, making conflict in this area a certainty.

	08-10-2004 07:31									#17
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I think this game is about working as a team against another team, with tactical and strategic wars being generated intermittently throughout the game, either between both teams or just between isolated team members. Therefore I strongly favour a Pangea map, perhaps even slightly crowded (which is why I initially suggested Small size, though standard would also be good).

A cooked map would definitely be the best. I think some nice natural terrain features like defensive mountain ranges separating the teams, or certain civs of the teams, or even team members from each other to provide more challenge. I don't necessarily think that all 4 team members should be on one end of the continent and the other 4 team members on the other end. Perhaps one member of each team should start isolated from the other 3, thus bringing some interesting defensive teamwork strategies into play.

There's a whole myriad of these type of issues that can be set up in an interesting way through the map generation and start locations.

As for modding the civs, I'm not real big on it. I think one of the factors for each team is how well they pick their 4 civs, and how well they play to their traits as a team.

I guess we'll be playing with locked alliances also.

Why don't we start with 2 settlers and 2 warriors, to get things moving quickly?

	08-10-2004 07:34									#18
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Also, there are plenty of pre-prepared maps around if we look....like real earth maps or middle-earth maps. Maybe we could play with one of those.

	08-10-2004 07:54									#19
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Now, real earth would be interesting. One group in Europe, one in asia, as advertised?

	08-10-2004 07:55									#20
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Or even the "Fall of Rome" scenario map. That's a good map of europe + asia, lots of resources and whatnot, and a pangea.

	08-10-2004 08:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I think this game is about working as a team against another team, with tactical and strategic wars being generated intermittently throughout the game, either between both teams or just between isolated team members. Therefore I strongly favour a Pangea map, perhaps even slightly crowded (which is why I initially suggested Small size, though standard would also be good). A cooked map would definitely be the best. I think some nice natural terrain features like defensive mountain ranges separating the teams, or certain civs of the teams, or even team members from each other to provide more challenge. I don't necessarily think that all 4 team members should be on one end of the continent and the other 4 team members on the other end. Perhaps one member of each team should start isolated from the other 3, thus bringing some interesting defensive teamwork strategies into play. There's a whole myriad of these type of issues that can be set up in an interesting way through the map generation and start locations. As for modding the civs, I'm not real big on it. I think one of the factors for each team is how well they pick their 4 civs, and how well they play to their traits as a team. I guess we'll be playing with locked alliances also. Why don't we start with 2 settlers and 2 warriors, to get things moving quickly?

Aqualung..... I am with you on most points. I like th eidea of some tough interior terrain. And the two settler start helps.

	08-10-2004 13:06									#22
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Team members are free to trade all and any information whenever they wish......as in directions for meeting, map info, tech research info, etc.

The only thing we should really ban would be "friendly" GA triggering and leader farming. Even gifting of cities within a team is ok, as it is part of the team strategy to make sure the team is well balanced.....or not.....depending on objectives.

This opens up a lot of strategic possibilities, and as long as it's done by the team, no problem.

We could of course play with a slightly larger map and have a few AI thrown into the mix!

Thinking more about the map, I'm not sure that an earth map would be the most fun. I think a tailor-made map with some mountainous/tundra/desert boundaries might be kinda cool.

I'm with Rhoth on difficulty......Demi-God or Deity, though corruption will be horrible under Deity......and it would sorta make the AI option unworkable.

On MWIA's comments regarding promoting team play by limiting tech trade between teams, I don't think this is necessary. I think we have to assume we will all play "for the team", or else we shouldn't be here. Thus, trading between the 2 teams becomes a simple decision. Either both teams want to, or it doesn't happen. But I like the idea on having the "no-man's land" full of nice resources, etc.

	08-10-2004 16:19									#23
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We could play the standard game of "resource battle", where we have some resources in our areas, but most of the luxes, and perhaps particular strat resources as well, are in the middle no-mans-land area ... always leads to good action, since you *have* to fight over them. It's a standard RTS map.

Deity or Demigod is fine, but no AI please either way - i hate playing with them in PBEMs.

	08-10-2004 16:54									#24
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Pffff discussion is moving fast...

Pangea vs Continents
My thoughts originated from the invite. I thought the idea was to decide which team is best at C3C and therefore I was looking for building, war and luxes/resources tactics components. For fairness I suggested identical land masses.
Nonetheless if the organising committee expresses strong wishes to play Pangea, I'll settle even more so, now that it appears the majority is supporting that.

civs
I still think it's intersting stragey planning to let the teams decide how to distribute the traits among themselves. There are 8 and each team has 4 players. On the UU's same choice strategy. And what does it matter if we would, in the end all have the same UU?

trade / cooperation
I agree with Aqua. The focuss is on team work, so less as possible limitations there. I do also agree on his restrictions of leader farming and GA triggering. I would hesitate to trade with one of the "enemy" civs.

terrain
I don't care that much.

start
In the expanding game we started with 3 settlers, 4 scouts and 3 workers. I'm fine with a little headstart. A normal start is also fine

level
never played beyond emperor, but if someone fills me in on what the consequences are, I'm fine with it all.

	08-10-2004 20:50									#25
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Aside from a bit of tech stagnation, a lower likelihood of good stuff from huts and tougher barbs (not much), levels above Regent only affect the AI significant;y, so we could safely choose any level, as long as there is no AI. I'm happy with any level.

As for the restriction, sure, sounds like we may not need them. I'm happy with that, and just wanted the idea brought up. As for the ban on GL farming and friendly GA generation, that's fine too. There are a lot of other exloits that could come in, for example if you gift a city correctly, both of you get the trade for it, when it should only give one amount per turn. Hopefully we can have a gentleman's agreement on these sorts of things rather than listing them all, and consult with another learned member of our own team if we are in any doubt. I'd certainly volunteer to be that member for my team, as, being as heavily involved in the ultra-competitive intersite DGs as I am, I think I have heard mention of most such exploits that there are.

The no man's land full of medieval and later resources is still a good idea to me, though, and I hope others like it too. We could have Horses and Iron available in limited quantites to each side, and in this centre part all of the saltpeter, coal, oil, aluminium etc (bar perhaps a single amount on a distant isle somewhere) as well as more Iron and Horses.

	08-10-2004 21:26									#26
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Some quick thoughts of my own before we head off for the weekend.

Aqua - the limit is 8 civs in pbem so that rules out any ai's.

As to civs - I am thinking of theme here - and the asian-european split gives lots of trait choices. I don't know - I just think this will enrich the game, and give more ammunition for trash talking. The enlightened east versus the barbarians to the west - sort of like thing. It was sort of the original idea upon which the game idea was absed, and I would like to stick to it.

And I still say we limit the sides to one agri civ each.

Agree 100% on leader farming, and similar exploits. I think the simple rule is that teams on teh same side can never go to war with each other.

No!!!! to an earth map.

A pangaea map - large enough to separate the civs at the start., and with some tough terrain in teh middle.

And I like the two settler start.

As to difficulty - Rhoth's suggestion makes sense. As you move up in difficulty - three main considerations. Barbs are tougher. Only one content citizen. And research takes longer. That is what he was getting at. With a four team civ, we are simply going to quadruple ordinary research, so lets make the tech curve a littlle steeper.

AANOTHER MAJOR CONSIDERATION: we use the rule about no out of game contact with team-mates until you meet in game. What that will do is force some early tough decisions regarding research, as you will not know what your team mates are going to research. (we will need to be on the honour system on thie one folks).

I am away for the weekend, so see you on Sunday.

(Paddy - why did you open this up for debate. We will never get the game started now. :lol

	08-10-2004 21:46									#27
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I like the Europe-Asia civ split, limited to one agricultural civ.

No to leader farming and GA starting, and any other things deemed exploits in the PBEM rules thread...but I think all of us have been around PBEMs/demogames enough that we all trust each other.

Pangaea map with tough terrain and a middle bonanza sounds good...and of course I'm still voting for deity level difficulty. The only difference between deity and emperor for us is slightly more barbs from huts and a slightly lower tech progression. Sid is out as it nerfs the expansionist trait too, along with everything else, and I don't think we want that.

2 settler start is fine with me.

And finally, I like Beta's idea of no out of game contact until with teammates until we have in-game contact. As long as we can get together to choose our civs beforehand of course.

Let's get this game on the road.

	09-10-2004 06:04									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Beta ............ I am away for the weekend, so see you on Sunday. (Paddy - why did you open this up for debate. We will never get the game started now. :lol

have a great weekend

bet we can add more to this by the time you get back

as to starting it - well yeah looks like some good ol' fashion discussions going on

	09-10-2004 07:52									#29
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I dunno, i sort of like teammate collaboration. How about the only thing we can discuss pre-contact is where on the minimap we are? IE, unless we're on separate sides of the map, ie all 4 of us americans on the west side and all 4 aussies on the east side, in which case it matters little, we can say "i'm on the southwest side of the minimap, halfway down", but nothing else?

Otherwise it will take too long to find each other, and the team part is not as interesting (as we can't really be teamed up).

Unless we are on a pretty small (ie, standard) map, and we're allowed to tell each other once we meet where the other folk are?

I want to be able to meet up pre-2000 BC with at least 2 of the 3 teammates, if i'm expansionist, for example.

Oh- and if we do asian-euro i think we should be asian and you aussies be european. Otherwise i'd worry we'd beat you too soundly ...

	09-10-2004 14:17									#30
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snoopy.....talk as much trash as you like matey, but never assume you will beat us with any civ combination!

Ok, time to get passionate! My strong recommendations are:

• Unlimited intra-team discussion and information exchange on all issues, at all times. This is a team game with only one objective for all team members, and IMHO at no stage should we be playing as individuals
  
• I'm even in favour of all starting locations being made public on turn 1. That allows for some pretty interesting strategy discussions off the bat! (of course, I expect some opposition to this one )
  
• I think it would be more fun if all 4 members of each team are not all located adjacent to each other. This raises interesting war tactics like cutting off an opponent from his allies, etc.
  
• No-mans-land resources sounds like fun. Definitely Pangea.
  
• Maximum of 2 settlers each.
  
• No-attack rule for the first 20 turns
  
• Limit on Ag civs is no big deal, but I'm happy to agree
  
• Exploits - I think we all know them. Most of us play a bunch of PBEM's and so I'm sure you would all agree that even regardless of the questionable ethics, it probably doesn't even occur to us to use them given the number of turns we have to get through each night
  
• Map size - I still think Small would be fun, but certainly no bigger than Standard. You don't need dozens of cities.
  
• Terrain - I love lots of mountains! Not so keen on Jungle. Let's have that mountainous barrier, or mabye evern 3!
  
• As for difficulty level, remember that corruption becomes more of a problem at higher difficulty levels due to lower OCN. Map size is also important here. Small map = 17 cities, standard map = 20 cities. Adjusted OCN at Emperor is 80%, Demigod 70%, Deity 60%, so at the higher levels it can have a big effect on your outerlying cities. I'm still with Rhoth - my recommendation is Deity, which will both limit the tech pace and test our economic management skills the most.

[end of rant]