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jtsisyoda
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COO, Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Jul 2003
time: 00:21
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Googlie was trying to post the memo in the Spartan Embassy, so I guess I'll just post it myself. Remember, the official position of the Federation is to disregard this memo.
quote:
CONFIDENTIAL MEMORANDUM
To: Mr. Chaunk, CEO, Morgan Industries (the Corporation)
From: Lieutenant-Colonel Googlie, Joint Chair of the Junta, The Spartan Federation (the "Federation")
Subject: Testing the conditions for a "Deep Pact" between our factions
Date: Mission Year- 2143
**************************************************
**************************************************
**********
This is a personal initiative and does not reflect the official position of the Federation
By way of background, I lead a "wing" of the Junta informally known as "the pro-Morgan wing". I have recently been arguing in Junta sessions that we consider establishing much closer relations between our two factions, creating, if you will, on Chiron, a "Military-Industrial" complex intertwining of our officers and your economists and scientists.
By focusing our efforts on certain key technologies such as Doctrine Flexibility and Planetary Networks - to the exclusion of more traditional research paths that lead to Industrial Automation - we have succeeded in exploring much of Chiron, have infiltrated several factions, and have met - and signed Treaties with - all 6 other factions that survived Planetfall.
And while our military build-up has been proceeding as planned, our covert operations and diplomatic efforts have yielded impressive results. (As an example, we now possess the useful technologies of Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing and Ecological Engineering, to name but 3. I was instrumental in persuading the Junta this year to offer the Corporation the opportunity of licensing the Ethical Calculus technology)
But clearly, as a faction that likes its "expensive toys", we cannot over the long haul hope to compete economically and scientifically with a faction such as the Corporation, and this leads me to approach you with the following suggestion for consideration by your Board:
Let us pact together, for a period to that point in time where we - together - discover the Mind Machine Interface technology. At that juncture we then have the option of going our separate ways, or perhaps extending our co-operation to the attainment of some future milestone technology, such as Super Tensile Solids, again agreeing to part company at that point.
While it is inevitable that upon that parting we will compete for the victory of our own Philosophies, in suggesting this latter pact duration we are pretty much conceding that we are unlikely to want to wage vendetta against you, as strong as you will be by that point in time.
We would see this pact as being non-exclusive (in that we realize that to maximize your economic potential you will want to pact with all 6 factions, if possible) but will be all-inclusive. If we have researched or probed a tech that you lack, you need only ask and it will be sent forthwith, and vice versa. Our two factions will run an integrated economy where we will provide navy and air force services, provide exploration information and, to the extent that our meager research efforts allow, leapfrog with you in researching technologies on both our critical paths. We would be integrated to the extent that we will agree in advance which Special Projects we will each pursue (and I would broadly see the Federation concentrating on those that provided free base facilities - to offset our lack of energy production and ease the economic burden we would be to the Corporation - and the Corporation focusing on those that provided research, economic and population boosts)
Thus the role of the Corporation would be as a research and economic engine, while that of the Federation would be defense, threat suppression and global projection of power. The Corporation would likely grow through internal expansion, the Federation through external acquisition.
And when that time comes where we part ways and endeavor to impose our unique ideology on Chiron, the Corporation will likely have the option of dominating economically, or scientifically (by transcendence), while the Federation's choices will likely be diplomatically (by persuading a 3/4 majority of Chiron's citizens that Spartan rule is beneficial, or militarily - by forcing them to accept that rule) It should promise to be an interesting time in Chiron politics.
So, my dear CEO, I have given you much food for thought. Your answer needn't be this year, as the year end is almost upon us, but I would appreciate your initial reaction which, if favorable, will embolden me to continue to vigorously prosecute a Morgan alliance within the Junta discussions
Sincerely,
Lt. Col Googlie
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arginine
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You know, if the Spartans do invade us let they grab a city. We'll just swarm it with probe teams, tech steal and then take it/buy it back. We'll then have weapon tech to build real military units. Their invasion would be beneficial... for us.
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by arginine
You know, if the Spartans do invade us let they grab a city. We'll just swarm it with probe teams, tech steal and then take it/buy it back. We'll then have weapon tech to build real military units. Their invasion would be beneficial... for us. |
Our ability to probe is our only effective defense.
Mead
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Mead
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Latest from the Embassy. Posted by Arginine.
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Well, this would explain the schizophrenia I've been seeing in the Spartans. I thought it was an effort to lull us into a false sense of security and have our greed cloud our persceptions.
Very well, I had my eye on acquision of planetary governorship in about 5 to 10 years. It is a big longshot in my eyes. I should point out that Morgan Industries recently has acquired the PTS in case the Federation is not aware of that. I figured it might be possible if one of the computers voted in favor of us and the other abstained and the Spartans voted for us (after recieving a huge bribe of course). I bet Sparta could use the money to build creches.
I should also point out that invasions always take longer than expected. The PTS will increase Morgan's might. Had your faction already taken action it would have gotten more than expected for little in return.
I am NOT an official spokesman of Morgan Industries or its subsidiaries regarding official policy.
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Arginine, what is the stratgy you are employing with the Spartans?
Are you meaning to tell them that we are expecting an invasion from them?
Are you meaning to tell them that we do not think it would be successful for them?
Are you trying to intimidate them?
quote:
I should also point out that invasions always take longer than expected. The PTS will increase Morgan's might. Had your faction already taken action it would have gotten more than expected for little in return. |
Are you telling them that they should have struck us already? And that the PTS only makes us stronger, so that time is of the essense, and that they should attack as soon as possible?
Let's discuss this internally before we post it in the embassy.
I hope Sparta does not take this as a suggestion that they should attack us, now.
Mead
PS
I don't want to criticize you. You are one of our most active and productive members with very good knowledge and insights, but I would appreciate you confering internally with the Corporation before you post strategy discussions in the embassy.
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Mead
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Latest from the Embassy:
quote:
Date Posted: 25/10/2004 3:39 AM
[Click here to send an email to Kassiopeia] [Click here to send Private Message to Kassiopeia] [View Profile] [Click here to quote and reply this message] [Move to Top] [Move to Bottom] [Move to Next Message] [Move to Previous Message]
Lieutenant Colonel Maniac has refused your proposal of 6 ecs a year for 15 years. He has asked me to tell you that you may want to reconsider, as while Mister the_realarginine's views may not be official ones, they have caused a slight uproar in the Federation.
This is in reference to the one that has been edited away but the one we managed to capture:
quote:
I should also point out that invasions always take longer than expected. The PTS will increase Morgan's might. Had your faction already taken action it would have gotten more than expected for little in return. |
[Emphasis mine]
Lt Col Maniac is dismayed at the thought that Morganite elements have seriously considered that we have been plotting an invasion. There is no reason for any of you to think so and statements such as these are hardly ones that cultivate trust.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.
Message edited by: Kassiopeia on 10/25/2004 03:53:27[Server Time/GMT -8 Pacific Time]
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They seem to be a little unhappy.
I'll try to work with them.
Mead
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Mead
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My reply to Kass (I'm trying to ignore and move past recent unhappiness).
quote:
Date Posted: 25/10/2004 4:25 AM
[Click here to send an email to Mead] [Click here to send Private Message to Mead] [View Profile] [Click here to quote and reply this message] [Move to Top] [Move to Bottom] [Move to Next Message] [Move to Previous Message] [Click here to Edit this message]
Reply to : Kassiopeia
Lieutenant Colonel Maniac has refused your proposal of 6 ecs a year for 15 years. He has asked me to tell you that you may want to reconsider, ***
Lt Col Kassiopeia
Morgan and I enjoy working with you.
The reason why we don't want to pay too much for EC is because, accepting your terms, we will be unable to build the CDF or, even worse for us, make money off trading it to other factions.
Maybe it's worth more than 6 EC per year for 15 (with your terms), but not 10 per year for 15.
Please let me know what you think.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
PS
Enclosed in the turn you will find 5 ECs, for your share of the Morgan bonus. |
I'll probably respond in more detail later today.
Mead
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arginine
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My personal response to the Spartans, provided the board grants approval.
// begin response to Spartans
The board was displeased with my earlier statement, so I took the message down.
The 'schizophrenic' statement refers to some of the earlier mentions of a 'pact', while at the same time being stingy about simpler things. With the existence of a few pro Industrial-Military Complex officers, that behavior makes sense.
The invasion statement was to convey that we have plans to make an invasion unprofitable and we are watching. I figure people in favor of an invasion would be silent, unless an extortion effort was undertaken. Realistically, I feel there are better targets for conquest, and almost certain the Federation knows that as well.
Finally, right now I would be willing to pay 15 EC / turn for assistance in becoming planetary governor (provided we do become governor) That is in addition to the 5 EC / turn increase our existing treaty would generate for the Spartans. I guess the Federation would also like access to the infiltration data as well in spite of already having good intelligence.
// end of response
The earlier prices are justifiable for researching a tech, but not for stealing it with cheap probe teams. I figure the use of 20 mins for 1 move probe teams. Assuming a 40% success rate of tech steal and 0% team recovery rate, that would put the expenses at 137 EC assuming flat out buying the probe team or 100 EC if the energy is spent on facilities and the extra minerals go to build probe teams.
If use of an expensive transport is needed for infiltration, fine we'll pay for its use. If a declaration of war is needed, fine we can provide susidies for the construction of a defensive base and military units to offset the costs of a war. Those are the costs of doing business so we pay them.
Last edited by arginine on 26-10-2004 at 23:00
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arginine
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I was concerned about our trading partners getting gobbled up also. In order for us to get trade, we just need the opponent to have a city. It can be a giant size 14 city, or a small size 1 city. It just has to be a city. A bunch of size 1 cities with 1 square spacing could be given to the computer to give us trade.
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Mead
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Latest from the embassy:
quote:
We appreciate your willingness to establish a fair price for Ethical Calculus, and I think that your diplomatic efforts have been at least cordial, if not completely professional as you lament.
The Junta recognizes your financial troubles at the moment, therefore we suggest an additional exchange of technology to cover for the lowered licence fee. Therefore we propose that the following might be an acceptable compromise for both of our factions:
Morgan Industries supplies to the Federation the technology of Industrial Economics , pays an annual licence fee of 8 energy credits for 15 years for the use of Ethical Calculus, and undertakes not to trade it to third parties for a period of 9 years. Furthermore, the Corporation undertakes not to build the Citizens' Defense Force. Ever.
In exchange, the Federation will transmit to Morgan Industries Ethical Calculus, with the no-trade embargo reduced from our original 15 years to 9 years, and Gene Splicing - Gene Splicing will not have a no-traude clause attached to it.
[Unofficially, I will say that if this is accepted, I am fairly certain that my Junta colleagues could be convinced to explore a joint initiative towards securing Ecological Engineering and Environmental Economics for both of our factions.]
Also, while I am sure that our titles may be confusing to you, seeing as you are all Misters, I have to correct you, Mr. Mead, in that I am not a Lieutenant Colonel, but a Major.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.
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I plan to accept this with the following provision:
quote:
Major Kassiopeia
We appreciate your kind understanding of our situation.
We agree to your offer with the with the following provision that you, like us agreeing not to transfer Gene Splicing or EC to anyone else for 9 years, agree not to trade Industrial Economics for 9 years to anyone else. And as we promise to never build the CDF, you promise to never build the PEG.
To summarize:
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer either EC or Gene Splicing to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us EC, Gene Splicing, your commitment to not transfer either EC or Gene Splicing to anyone else for 9 years, and your commitment to never build the PEG.
If you agree, please send both Techs to us preaccepted and post a response confirming your acceptance.
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Mead
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arginine
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I think we should ask the Spartans if it is possible for us to acquire neural grafting through them in the near future, or if anyone even has neural grafting.
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arginine
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We are going to beat the junta to the PEG without divine intervention, so I wouldn't put in that conditionality.
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by arginine
We are going to beat the junta to the PEG without divine intervention, so I wouldn't put in that conditionality. |
I'm not worried about them building PEG before us.
I'm adding that clause to save Morgan 'face'.
If they are going to get us to promise not to build the CDF I want them to feel like they are giving us something (that they don't really care about anyway) in return (but that they think is important to us).
I don't want Sparta to get the feeling that we are a pushover. It sets a bad precedent for future negotiations.
Exchanging a promise from them not build build a certain SP in return for our promise to them not to build a certain SP seems fair and reasonable. It's a promise that costs them nothing, but that they may think we value substantially.
I am asking them for the promise from them not to trade Industrial Economics to anyone else for the same exact reason (if they are geting our promise not to transfer tech they give us for 9 years then I want the same promise from them). I think everyone will have it by the time we make contact.
Mead
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arginine
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I guess I'll just leave diplomacy to the diplomats. I would prefer the project be the Ascetic Virtues though...
Last edited by arginine on 27-10-2004 at 07:54
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jtsisyoda
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COO, Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Jul 2003
time: 00:21
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Awesome, Mr. Mead.  (Although I think everybody else has Ind Econ so that part may be superfluous.) I have a suggestion we could consider, though. Instead of (or in addition to?) making them promise not to build PEG, we could add a condition to our promise not to build CDF. We agree not to build CDF as long as the Spartans don't break the treaty with us. (Implying that if they attack us, steal from us, etc., we are freed from our commitment.) This might go without saying, so do you guys think it's unnecessary? If they were to backstab us, we would not be the ones losing honor by abandoning the agreement.
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arginine
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I think it is understood if we do get attacked (or we attacked them) Morgan-Spartan agreements would be null and void.
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Mead
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I posted this in the Embassy:
quote:
quote:
We appreciate your willingness to establish a fair price for Ethical Calculus, and I think that your diplomatic efforts have been at least cordial, if not completely professional as you lament.
The Junta recognizes your financial troubles at the moment, therefore we suggest an additional exchange of technology to cover for the lowered licence fee. Therefore we propose that the following might be an acceptable compromise for both of our factions:
Morgan Industries supplies to the Federation the technology of Industrial Economics , pays an annual licence fee of 8 energy credits for 15 years for the use of Ethical Calculus, and undertakes not to trade it to third parties for a period of 9 years. Furthermore, the Corporation undertakes not to build the Citizens' Defense Force. Ever.
In exchange, the Federation will transmit to Morgan Industries Ethical Calculus, with the no-trade embargo reduced from our original 15 years to 9 years, and Gene Splicing - Gene Splicing will not have a no-traude clause attached to it.
***
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Major Kassiopeia
We appreciate your kind understanding of our situation.
We agree to your offer with the with the following provision that, like us agreeing not to transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, you agree not to trade Industrial Economics for 9 years to anyone else. And, as we promise to never build the CDF, you promise to never build the PEG.
To summarize:
Our Offer
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years, and your commitment to never build the PEG.
If you agree, please send both Techs to us preaccepted and post a response here confirming your acceptance.
quote:
[Unofficially, I will say that if this is accepted, I am fairly certain that my Junta colleagues could be convinced to explore a joint initiative towards securing Ecological Engineering and Environmental Economics for both of our factions.]
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This sounds very promising. We anticipate closer relations with Sparta that will be very profitable for both of us.
quote:
Also, while I am sure that our titles may be confusing to you, seeing as you are all Misters, I have to correct you, Mr. Mead, in that I am not a Lieutenant Colonel, but a Major.
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My mistake. But, I am certain you will attain that, and higher grade, rapidly.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
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Mead
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Awesome, Mr. Mead. (Although I think everybody else has Ind Econ so that part may be superfluous.) I have a suggestion we could consider, though. Instead of (or in addition to?) making them promise not to build PEG, we could add a condition to our promise not to build CDF. We agree not to build CDF as long as the Spartans don't break the treaty with us. (Implying that if they attack us, steal from us, etc., we are freed from our commitment.) This might go without saying, so do you guys think it's unnecessary? If they were to backstab us, we would not be the ones losing honor by abandoning the agreement. |
I expect them to build the CDF themselves as soon as it is practicable to keep it out of the hands of their future intended victims.
With the CBA unavailable it is the best defensive SP. Although it is useful as an SP I never liked letting my enemy get close enough to my cities where they could use ground forces (it's true that because choppers can't attack cities, ground attacks may be more likely).
Please note, it is possible for them to properly attack us if the treaty ends in a lawful way (by expiration, or mutual agreement) and then they attack us. By the time that happens, however, I expect them (or maybe someone else) to have built the CDF. I expect that one of the chief reasons why they were restricting our transfer of it was to prevent other factions from building the CDF.
When the time eventually comes, we will have to capture (probe/buy) the city that houses the CDF SP. Probably from the Spartans.
Mead
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arginine
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They have rejected the deal, but over the minor bits we added in recently.
If we accept their techs at the beginning of next turn, will that increase the cost of researching Adapt Eco which we will start next turn. We won't need the techs immediately so it might be a good idea to deal acceptance of the deal until right after they finish their turn.
Also, they need industrial economics in order to research Environmental Economics, so while we might not value it, they do.
The stickler was the time limitation on trading Ind. Eco.
I'd like to trade that tech with the friendly AIs to help us get on good enough terms to get a trade pact. We haven't thought about how to butter up those friendly AIs into giving us trade deals, at which point we can ignore the rest of the game 
I would like to reiterate my support of rushing a foil of some sort next turn.
Since we put that time delay before trading the techs, we can cite our need to make the AIs friendly to us somehow. If they have a viable alternative for us to get friendly with the AIs, then I have no objections.
Last edited by arginine on 28-10-2004 at 07:46
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Mead
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Junta Responding at turning down our offer:
quote:
The Junta has decided to turn down your counter-proposal. The earlier proposal by us was considered to be a balanced one, but your addition of a no-trade clause to Industrial Economics and a no-build clause of Planetary Energy Grid are a problem.
While the PEG issue is a minor one, the no-trade clause is not - we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc.
With the no-trade clause, this is not the case for nine years, during which the monetary value of the technology will have rapidly declined.
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So this is their stated reason. Maybe it's the real reason.
quote:
If you can remove the no-trade clause from your counterproposal, we have a deal.
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I don't have any problem with removing it, although I would like to get something in return, like
arginine's request that they promise not to build the AV.
The rest of their response.
quote:
"My mistake. But, I am certain you will attain that, and higher grade, rapidly."
Thank you, I am flattered; but I would probably turn such a promotion down, as I find that my skills are best used in my current position, not that of a commanding officer.
In response to Mr. Arginine:
The Junta disagrees with the presented principle and the calculation of the value of stolen techs.
Regarding the calculation of what's the cost for getting stolen techs, you have made some errors. This is of course understandable, as you have little experience with our method of technology acquisition.
Firstly, in order to steal technology succesfully, probe teams with 2 movement points are necessary. This increases the cost to 3 mineral rows per probe team.
Secondly, it costs more than two credits per mineral to hurry a unit, e.g. a probe team. A more accurate exchange rate would be 2.5 to 3 credits per mineral. Since were not an economical-infrastructurally oriented faction, we have no need right now for facilities, so your argument that we should use those credits for hurrying facilities holds no ground when applied to us.
Those two factors already increase the credit cost of a stolen tech (being cheap and assuming a 2.5 ec exchange rate) to 225 credits.
However, that does not include the cost of building the transports necessary to ship the probes to their destination. That's a heavy investment in a period of time when those minerals can be used for many other useful things. If you include that, the cost increases even more.
Besides that, we disagree with the principle that self-researched technologies would be more valuable than self-stolen techs. They are simply different and equivalent strategies to reach the same goal. As you have lots of energy, researching yourselves is the best option for you. As we have less energy but more naval and probe power, 'acquiring' them is the best option for us.
Additionally, several of the key techs we have available for sale or trade were not acquired through self-research nor probe stealing. For example, Gene Splicing was purchased by us, and we traded a tech to the AI for Ethical Calculus (I suppose the latter can be comparable to a self-researched tech).
So it's not quite so simple as comparative costs for stolen versus researched technologies. We do not consider one strategy inferior to another, and the techs obtained by one strategy we do not consider less valuable in trades than techs obtained by another strategy. "All techs are born equal" - this is a simple principle to follow.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta. |
How soon do we need/want the Techs (EC and GS)?
If we need them ASAP I'll accept their offer.
LET ME KNOW.
If not, I'll wait or try to get a better deal with them promising not to build AV.
I want to get an installment payment deal in place at least 2 years before our treaty deal is to expire so they continue to have a reason to value peace with us.
It looks like they have already posted the turn so a deal for this turn may not be possible.
Mead
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Mead
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My reply
quote:
quote:
Reply to : Kassiopeia
The Junta has decided to turn down your counter-proposal. The earlier proposal by us was considered to be a balanced one, but your addition of a no-trade clause to Industrial Economics and a no-build clause of Planetary Energy Grid are a problem.While the PEG issue is a minor one, the no-trade clause is not - we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc.With the no-trade clause, this is not the case for nine years, during which the monetary value of the technology will have rapidly declined.If you can remove the no-trade clause from your counterproposal, we have a deal.
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Maj Kassiopeia
We value your position. We find it entirely understandable that you hope, like us, to profit over the sale of Industrial Economics to others (you help others while at the same time you help yourself and everyone benefits). It is commendable.
It just seems evenhanded that if you place a 9 year restriction on the transfer of Ethical Calculus so you could profit on its later sale, that we place a 9 year restriction on the transfer of Industrial Economics so we could profit on its later sale.
I have not yet discussed this with the Corporation, but I am thinking that we could replace the non-transfer restriction with a promise from you to never build the Ascetic Virtues.
As always, please let me know what you think. I like to keep the discussions between us open and productive.
To summarize again:
Our Revised Offer assuming the Corporation agrees with what I'm thinking (I really want to make this deal work for us, but I have to check with the Corporation)
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, DELETED[your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years], and your commitment to never build the PEG ADDED [and your commitment to never build the Ascetic Virtues].
If the Junta agrees to this please let me know by posting here. I think I could get the Corporation to agree, I would then post acceptance and then we would have a deal.
If you have sent the techs to us preaccepted this turn (I don't know if you have) and we resolve this by the time we get the turn we might be able to consumate the deal then.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
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23-10-2004 22:47
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