 |
|
arginine
|
|
I would have prefered us paying 10 ECs for 15 years and US trading techs with the AIs, but no gripes here.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
Hmm, they said the agreement was still under negotiation...
Since we are getting 2 techs, instead of 1. I'd like to put the no trade to AI clause back in and lets increase the amount of money we are offering. I'd be game for 165 EC (11 EC over 15 years). Hopefully, they'll accept it flat out, given ethic calc was previously 150 EC.
They presumably can get Ind: Eco from a human, so it's not wise to withhold it forever. Its value would be to 1) research Env. Eco. or 2) trade to the friendly AIs.
Since the Spartans want to trade it to friendly AIs, this also means the other humans don't have access to the friendly AIs yet. 
I want to see if the AIs have Secrets of the Human Brain before we try to get it from the Spartans.
Last edited by arginine on 29-10-2004 at 00:39
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
I figure a stance on needed techs would be desired for negotiations...
Here are some biggies:
Adaptive Eco. - get the PEG
Planetary Eco. - get the A.V. and planetary trade pact (very usefull, but we need the backing of factions for its passage)
Intelec. Integ - to research Planetary Eco. Almost certain Spartans will for it for nonlethal methods & C.D.F.
Ethic Calc. - to get Demo (useful now for eff, thus less drones with expansion and diplo w/ PKs).
bio-engineering - CLEAN REACTOR, make LOTS of formers
neural grafting - with gene splicing gets bio-engineering
SotB - trance and route to bio-engineering
Env Eco - needed for tree farms in pop boomed cities
We would like ethic calc in a few years so we can switch to demo. Definately in 3 years.
bio-engineering would be GREAT anytime.
Adapt Eco would be nice soon so we can make PEG
We will want Eco Engineering to use the rocky squares in ~~10-15 years.
We will want Env Eco when we need tree farms so we can pop boom. We'll ICS for a while so it can wait.
I would like to propose an extension to our deal...
get ethic calc now.
The Spartans start researching neural grafting.
We start researching gene splicing.
Spartans finish researching neural grafting and give it and gene splicing to us.
We get gene splicing, stopping its research and start on bio-engineering.
We finish bio-engineering and give it to the Spartans.
Last edited by arginine on 29-10-2004 at 04:33
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
True, I figure we'll be able to research an extra tech (like adapt eco) while they research neural grafting.
I think the Spartans are trying to get to I.I (for nonlethal methods police) and tree farms to boom their bases. I don't know if they'd be willing to deviate from their beeline to get clean reactors. (I hope they will)
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
I posted this in the embassy.
I have three purposes.
One, I want to move the negotiations along.
Two, I hope to, by politely showing a sense of urgency (a few hours after the DA got the turn) cause the Spartans to suspect that we made contact with the DA and are no negotiaiting with the DA as well.
The Spartans might suspect that we are trying to get an answer from them before we decide what to do with the DA.
Three, the Spartans will likely ask the DA whether they have made contact with us. The DA will say no and the Spartans will mistrust the DA.
If I succeed at one, and we settle on their last offer then I'm happy. If I succeed at two, and they accept our offer then I'm even happier. If I also succeed at three, then great.
quote:
Date Posted: 29/10/2004 4:05 PM
Majors Kassiopeia and Lt Col Googlie
Could you let me know tonight what your position is on our current tech trade negotiations?
On 27/10/2004 3:56 PM you offered:
quote:
The Junta has decided to turn down your counter-proposal. The earlier proposal by us was considered to be a balanced one, but your addition of a no-trade clause to Industrial Economics and a no-build clause of Planetary Energy Grid are a problem.
While the PEG issue is a minor one, the no-trade clause is not - we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc.
With the no-trade clause, this is not the case for nine years, during which the monetary value of the technology will have rapidly declined.
If you can remove the no-trade clause from your counterproposal, we have a deal.
|
On 28/10/2004 1:02 PM I counteroffered:
quote:
To summarize again:
Our Revised Offer -
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, DELETED[your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years], and your commitment to never build the PEG ADDED [and your commitment to never build the Ascetic Virtues].
|
I have not heard from you in a while. Could you let me know tonight (or perhaps early tomorrow morning) whether you are sticking with your offer, whether you accept our offer, or whether there is a third option you wish to propose.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
|
Hopefully we'll have a deal within 24 hours.
Mead
PS
Although the Spartans might suspect we made contact with someone else instead of, or in addition to the DA, their greatest suspicions will fall on the DA because of the timing of my post.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
I sent the following PM to Kass and Googlie.
I hope to get a response from them tonight and further cause them to think I'm in a hurry but trying not to tell the real reason (that we met the DA).
quote:
Fw: Tech Trade Status?
quote:
Mead wrote on 29-10-2004 19:42:
Kass and Googlie
I posted this in the embassy.
Could you let me know what's happening. I'd really like to move the discussions along. I think my team is getting a little fed up with me for taking so long to reach a deal.
quote:
Majors Kassiopeia and Lt Col Googlie
Could you let me know tonight what your position is on our current tech trade negotiations?
On 27/10/2004 3:56 PM you offered:
quote:
The Junta has decided to turn down your counter-proposal. The earlier proposal by us was considered to be a balanced one, but your addition of a no-trade clause to Industrial Economics and a no-build clause of Planetary Energy Grid are a problem.
While the PEG issue is a minor one, the no-trade clause is not - we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc.
With the no-trade clause, this is not the case for nine years, during which the monetary value of the technology will have rapidly declined.
If you can remove the no-trade clause from your counterproposal, we have a deal.
On 28/10/2004 1:02 PM I counteroffered:
quote:
To summarize again:
Our Revised Offer -
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, DELETED[your commitment to not transfer Industrial Economics to anyone else for 9 years], and your commitment to never build the PEG ADDED [and your commitment to never build the Ascetic Virtues].
I have not heard from you in a while. Could you let me know tonight (or perhaps early tomorrow morning) whether you are sticking with your offer, whether you accept our offer, or whether there is a third option you wish to propose.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
Thanks
Mead
PS
I forgot to put this in the message to Kass, but could you guys let me know either tonight or early tommorrow morning.
Many thanks,
Mead |
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
They can check their saved game to see if we had contact with DAs if they really wanted to. Still clever...
I would still like to see if we can keep the non trading restriction and just give the Spartans more money.
I cite
"we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc."
I think trading the tech is worth more to us than the money. If money is worth more to the Spartans than trading the tech lets give them the money. At the very least we will be able to GIVE the friendly AIs that tech. I think that will have a bigger positive effect on diplomacy with the friendly AIs than 40 EC.
PS - from my limited experience the Spartans tend to post in their forum when they are taking their turn (a good idea)
Last edited by arginine on 30-10-2004 at 05:06
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
They withdrew their offer and my response.
quote:
quote:
Date Posted: 29/10/2004 7:55 PM
Reply to : Kassiopeia
It appears that when we are proposing a deal to you we should never open negotiations with what we believe is a fair offer, but rather double the asking price. That way, after all the beating down of our asking price and the addition of your escalating demands, we might actually have a deal that we can live with.The proposed trade of Ethical Calculus and Gene Splicing for Industrial Economics and 120 energy credits has been withdrawn.
|
We are disappointed with your withdrawl of your offer. We were strongly considering accepting it, but sought to explore whether there were other oppurtunties where we could better help each other meet our needs.
Please note that the promise to not build the CDF, the best defensive SP available in this game (now that the CBA is gone) was a major concession on our part. Your possession of the CDF, and denial of it to all the other factions, would be a substantial benefit to you and loss to us.
We remain willing and eager to work with you.
If you want to put your offer back on the table, that is fine with us, if you also want to make another suggestion, we would be happy to hear it. Our offer remains open and on the table.
If you feel your offer is fair and one you can live with then why remove it from the table?
We felt that the no AV build clause was a fair exchange for you being allowed to profit on trading (Industrial Economics) while we could not profit off trading for 9 years off (Ethical Calculus). Is keeping your options open on building the AV that important to you? We thought it didn't matter all that much to you. We are eager to hear what you have to say.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
|
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
Posted by arginine
quote:
Since the issue is not officially in negotiation.
Morgan Industries gives Sparta:
180 ECs (15 EC year/year for 12 years)
Ind. Eco.
The Spartan Federation gives Morgan Industries
Gene Splicing
Ethic Calc.
This part looks like it was redacted or 'blacked out' but is still readable:
quote:
Neither side may give, exchange, transfer, etc. tech for 10 years.
Restrictions on SPs can be worked out if desired...
|
I am NOT an official spokesman of Morgan Industries or its subsidiaries regarding official policy.
|
[/quote]
It seems rather generous. We'll see what they do.
I'll try working Kass via PM for progress.
Mead
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
I posted this in the embassy after I exchanged PMs with Kass. He says he's open to the deal but wants us to make the offer.
quote:
Date Posted: 30/10/2004 1:12 PM
Major Kassiopeia
Earlier you posted:
quote:
The Junta has decided to turn down your counter-proposal. The earlier proposal by us was considered to be a balanced one, but your addition of a no-trade clause to Industrial Economics and a no-build clause of Planetary Energy Grid are a problem.
While the PEG issue is a minor one, the no-trade clause is not - we were willing to lower our price for Ethical Calculus from 10 to 8 times 15 because we expect to be able to trade IndEcon onwards for a sum of money that might slightly cover the decifit we will suffer from the lowered selling price of EthCalc.
With the no-trade clause, this is not the case for nine years, during which the monetary value of the technology will have rapidly declined.
If you can remove the no-trade clause from your counterproposal, we have a deal.
|
Per our recent discussions I understand that is the best and final offer of the Junta.
So we incorporate your terms removing the no trade clause on Industrial Economics:
We Offer
We give you Industrial Economics, 8 ECs per year for 15 years (120 ECs total), our commitment to not transfer Ethical Calculus to anyone else for 9 years, and our commitment to never build the CDF.
You give us Ethical Calculus, Gene Splicing, and your commitment to never build the PEG.
If you agree, please send both Techs to us preaccepted and post a response here confirming your acceptance.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp. |
Mead
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
I wouldn't try pushing Kass, they'll respond when they want to and probably before our turn is finished.
I personally feel our ability to trade or give Ind. Eco. to the AIs is worth more than 60 EC. I originally would have pushed my posted offer at 165 EC before their withdrawl of the trade. I will not go above 180 EC.
The Spartans had mentioned being able to offer a lower price of 120 EC from 150 EC by trading the tech Ind. Eco to get some more money. No reason for them to get money.
It is possible that they already have done a deal with the Angels (and/or) Gaians for the tech.
I find disturbing that we do not have consensus on if we want to give the Spartans rights to trade w/ AI Ind. Eco. I feel we MIGHT have to bribe the friendly AIs in order to get friendship (trade) treaties with them. If we don't need to bribe the AI we can trade Ind. Eco. for something.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Should we do as Kass suggests? |
Yes.
Although I am worried about the potential for them cheating us, we should honor the deal. They can only cheat us once. And, if they do, we will ensure that it is well known that they can't be trusted. They should know that their reputation is worth far more than the one time benefit of cheating us in a trade. Plus, I am relying on them looking forward to the income stream.
(Can someone explain pre-accepted trades and how we can be cheated?)
I was authorized to make the offer and I did so.
Although it is too late to withdraw the offer now (since it has been accepted), I note that, as long as Sparta acts honorably, it is a better deal than we were willing to accept.
Initially, they offered us Gene Splicing at 250 (15 EC for 20 years). Then they offered Etical Calculus at 10 ECs for 15 years. We were willing to accept that. We managed to get it reduced to 8 ECs for 15 years.
The deal is for better than we were willing to accept. They left money on the table, I'm not sure how much, if any, 'money' we left on the table.
In any event, an authorized offer was made by an authorized official of the the Morgan Corp. The offer was accepted by an authorized member of the Junta. We have a contract. We are bound to honor it.
Mead
PS
How is thier reputation for keeping their word in the mini-game? And, how good is the reputation of the team members over there for keeping their word in general in PBEMs?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
I think they've traded gene splicing since the offer and figure we can get it from other factions now and thus have lowered the price.
The same could be said of ethic calc.
True, we are getting 2 equivalent techs for 1 tech and 120 EC. But we are giving the Spartans our potential gain from trading Ind. Eco with the friendly AIs...
We did not establish about how much trading the tech to the 2 friendly AIs was worth....
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by AndiD
Go ahead and let's get this started. Perhaps we could remind them at the next negotiation that we were overly generous the first time. ;-)
(Maybe Kass is a bit upset every time he plays the minigame... :-D) |
Done.
I posted this in the embassy:
quote:
Date Posted: 30/10/2004 9:19 PM
quote:
Mr. Mead, your understanding is correct. We accept the proposal and are ready to go with the trade. Since the turn is going to be in your hands first, though, it might be more sensible for you to add to the table and preaccept your end of the bargain (including the annual treaty payment). Otherwise we both waste a good years' worth of time in the matter.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.
|
Major Kassiopeia
We are pleased that you accepted our offer and that we now have a deal.
We will do as you suggest. As you note, time is of the essense. We understand that the annual installment payments of 8 ECs per year for this deal are in addition to the the 'Morgan Bonus' profit sharing. So, if Sparta's share of the Morgan commerce bonus is 5 this turn, the cash transfer will be 13 = (5 bonus profit sharing + 8 installment payment).
It is good working with you and we look forward to future mutually profitable joint ventures.
Mead
CDO, Morgan Corp.
|
Mead
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
If we want to be aggressive, in our dealing with the Spartans, I would like to repeat an extension to our deal...
get ethic calc now. The Spartans hold onto gene splicing for a while.
The Spartans start researching neural grafting.
We start researching gene splicing.
Spartans finish researching neural grafting and give it and gene splicing to us.
We get gene splicing, stopping its research and start on bio-engineering.
We finish bio-engineering and give it to the Spartans.
I would prefer that we and the spartans agree to not trade neural grafting or bioengineering.
I am concerned that an AI will already or soon have neural grafting, in which case the Spartans merely have to acquire it and then pass it off as 'researched'. I would prefer to just get neural grafting and research it for ourselves.
If we want to be secret for now, all we really have to do right now is ask the Spartans to hold onto 'gene splicing' and say we want our research to be faster, as we won't need gene splicing yet.
Last edited by arginine on 01-11-2004 at 04:43
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Mead
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by arginine
If we want to be aggressive, in our dealing with the Spartans, I would like to repeat an extension to our deal...
get ethic calc now. The Spartans hold onto gene splicing for a while.
The Spartans start researching neural grafting.
We start researching gene splicing.
Spartans finish researching neural grafting and give it and gene splicing to us.
We get gene splicing, stopping its research and start on bio-engineering.
We finish bio-engineering and give it to the Spartans.
I would prefer that we and the spartans agree to not trade neural grafting or bioengineering.
I am concerned that an AI will already or soon have neural grafting, in which case the Spartans merely have to acquire it and then pass it off as 'researched'. I would prefer to just get neural grafting and research it for ourselves.
If we want to be secret for now, all we really have to do right now is ask the Spartans to hold onto 'gene splicing' and say we want our research to be faster, as we won't need gene splicing yet. |
We already agreed to the deal.
Let's not mess with it.
If we try to modify the deal now we will appear to be uncertain, unpredictable, and unreliable. In other words a bad trading partner.
Although it is possible to ask the Spartans to unwind the deal, they have no obligation to do so, AND it would be very unwise.
I strongly recommend against trying to get out of (or modifying) the deal.
I am not an expert at the tech trees, but I do know that we need stick to the deals we make if we want to be succesful at diplomacy.
arginine, we are stuck with the deal we made. I see that you have a good feel for tech tree stategy, give us some suggestions at what we should try to get next from Sparta and the other factions.
Mead
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
The only alteration to the Spartan trade deal in my proposal would be them giving us Gene Splicing several turns from now instead of right away. I see no harm in asking the Spartans to give us Gene Splicing several turns from now instead of right now unless we think they will break our agreement.
I guess what I was proposing was another tech trade, only taking advantage of being able to switch techs without losing any research (points?).
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
Oh well, I guess the Spartans will just give both techs next turn. No biggie.
Getting the clean reactor soon would be a big boon to us, as we could then crank out those needed formers. We might want to try to get Spartan assistance in getting the tech early.
In particular, I think we should offer some preliminary pricing on some techs.
Neural grafting would run ~250 EC (we won't have to get SoTB as a preliminary tech) and flat out offer ~400 EC for Bio-engineering.
We should put restrictions on the techs so they can't sell/trade them for about 20 years or so (but also promise we won't trade/sell the techs either). We emphasize our buying prices will go down with time (as they will). Also tell them that we will not be open for purchasing those techs for several turns. We are giving them 'advance information'.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
arginine
|
|
I meant for us to BUY the techs from them.
On another note, the Spartans said they thought the Gaians and Angels were going for D: AP. If so, why do the Angels have Progenitor Psych? This may give us an opportunity to test the Spartan's honesty if we ask the right questions.
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:21.
Apolyton Time is 00:21. |
top of page
|
|
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
28-10-2004 11:23
|