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arginine
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As of now, the Spartans have agreed to a trade agreement, provided they get half of the profits.
They have also offered Gene Splicing tech for 250 credits, with the condition that we can not give it to anyone else for 20 years.
They also have information on Gaian-Angel cooperation, but that information is currently 'classified', but adds that information may be declassified later.
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by arginine
As of now, the Spartans have agreed to a trade agreement, provided they get half of the profits.
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What do they mean by half the profits? Do they mean that we give them enough profit each year so that they and us both recieve the same net amount (because of the Morgan Commerce bonus)?
quote:
They have also offered Gene Splicing tech for 250 credits, with the condition that we can not give it to anyone else for 20 years.
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Gene Splicing for 250ECs. That seems a little steep.
quote:
They also have information on Gaian-Angel cooperation, but that information is currently 'classified', but adds that information may be declassified later. |
Info on Gaian DA cooperation is classified?
Is this there final and only offer?
Who's doing the negotiations on their side?
Who's going to do the negotiations on our side?
We need to counter-offer to see how they work.
Perhaps Gene Splicing for a lessor amount plus the agreement to not give it to any other human team for 10 (or perhaps 20) years.
If there is true Gaian/DA cooperation in effect then the Spartans need us as much as we need them.
We should not be heavy handed with them and they should not be heavy handed with us.
Being overly generous to the Spartans will result in our defeat to them. Not being able to cooperate with the Spartans will result in the defeat of both us and the Spartans to another faction.
Mead
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arginine
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Unfortunately, most of our side is idle. That has been ok, since there has been little activity, but now we're going to need that involvement. Our leadership isn't here, execpt for jtsisyoda.
Last edited by arginine on 10-10-2004 at 03:44
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by arginine
Unfortunately, most of our side is idle. That has been ok, since there has been little activity, but now we're going to need that involvement. Our leadership isn't here, execpt for jtsisyoda. |
I don't mind talking to Googlie to explore Sparta's position.
I would like authorization from a consensus of the corporation (or at jtisyoda) before I contact Googlie.
Mead
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arginine
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I guess the first order of business would be to get the trade agreements worked out. We would be interested in getting Gene Splicing, but the prices being charged is rather high. Especially since we can't gift it. I would like contact with the AIs before we make any decisions like that.
I do find the Spartan's position on trade to be disconcerting... I wouldn't mind giving them a 1/3 or a 1/4 of the difference in trade revenues. But at this stage in the game we will be making all the money. Hmm, I'm tempted to give them 1/3 flat out, but in negotiating the rule is to never accept the first offer... However if we want any trade for this turn we will need an agreement soon. We could offer them 50/50 for the first 5 turns, then it will be subject to further negotiations.
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arginine
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8 of the crawlers have been built. 1 of them will be ready when our turn comes around again and the final one will be rushed next turn. The turn after all the crawlers get cashed for the PTS. Most of the bases are building different stuff now. In particular, probe foils and cheap probe teams for coast probe defense.
Hey! Once we get the PEG, we get the raw energy for ECON, the PEG increases it by 50% then we give them energy, keeping the PEG's 50% gain for ourselves. I hope the other factions don't figure that out. I feel so greedy.
I think we should agree to it for 10 years, when the rate will be further negotiated. We could also say that we are doing it as a sign of goodwill between us. If our good will is taken advantage of, namely with agressive troop movements, then profits will be temperarily withheld.
I don't know how we will go about probing them.
We could also say that we have given up police powers with taking on Free Market. They will be recieving our increase in commerce without giving up any police powers. I suppose that arguement can wait until we renegotiate.
Last edited by arginine on 10-10-2004 at 08:57
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arginine
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I bet the Spartans can tell we don't have lasers, and nonlinear mathematics. Since lasers are needed for HE chem, we couldn't have researched it ourselves. They know we don't have contact with the two AIs (thanks to a little comment from Googlie). The fact they have 'classified' data on the other two factions, might be because of contact with the other two factions courtessey of the AI. That is logical to assume from the contact established by at the latest ~2136 between the two humans.
They have impactor weapons vs synth. They can tell we are weak now regardless of what we say. I thus propose we ask for impactor weapon technology after they finish their current turn, and try to pay for it without using any money in the immediate future (which could be used to rush transport foils). If they refuse we should rush a regular ship (not a transport), because it is slightly faster especially against fungus in our westmost base to reach to the AI. We might even consider switching our research to lasers.
I fear the Spartans will eventually gobble up the University and the Peacekeepers. This will cost us valuable trading partners, especially since they won't ask for redistribution of the profits. That concern is for farther in the future.
Last edited by arginine on 10-10-2004 at 22:49
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Mead, I'd be happy to let you be the diplomat for the Spartans. You seem to have a good grasp of the balance required. If there are no other nominations or volunteers, I say take charge. I'll stick to turnplaying and overall strategy and the diplomat can take point on negotiating deals and getting the rest of us to agree.
I agree we shouldn't accept the initial offer right away. The 250 seems steep, but our tech cost is 239, so it's not that outrageous. the problem is, it would take us six turns to come up with the cash. IMO we don't actually have any use for that tech immediately.
I think splitting the treaty income so we both get the same amount is ok, but we should definitely present arginine's argument about us using FM and them not. |
I posted this to Kassiopeia in the embassy:
///Begin Post to Kassiopeia///
quote:
Reply to : Kassiopeia
And here I am. I'm the Senior Diplomatic Officer of the Spartan Federation, and the one you should be talking to when you mean business. The Junta is currently deliberating our stance on your faction, so I cannot divulge too much information, but the Junta does readily recognize the obvious opportunities co-operation between our factions would bring.
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[/Q}
Hello Kassiopeia, I, Mead, am handling the diplomacy for the Corporation. We are pleased to meet the Junta. We recognize that we can both benefit substantially from working together.quote:
Even more so if the Gaians and Data Angels have joined forces.To start things off, a Treaty of Friendship with the right terms is not certainly out of the question, nor is trade of technology for credits.
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We have strong indications that the Gaians and Data Angels have, indeed, joined forces. Every year that went by without us meeting you was another year where they left Sparta and Morgan further behind.
quote:
Our primary problem with agreeing to a treaty is that of boosted trade income to you. You have much more, in that regard, to gain from a Treaty of Friendship than we do. Therefore we would appreciate, for example, a share of the additional profit you gain from such a Treaty: half of it to you and half of it to us sounds like a fair and acceptable deal.
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We understand and appreciate your concerns. Please understand that we do not get that additional commerce for free. Because of the Free Market, which helps make that income, we have problems with drones and exploring the world.
We believe that entering into a Treaty would be beneficial.
Please consider:
1.
In recognition of the special commerce advantage, Sparta gets one half of the special Morgan commerce bonus.
For example: If in year 2130 Morgan gets 16 in commerce with Sparta and Sparta gets 10 in commerce with Morgan, then in year 2131 Morgan sends 3 ECs to Sparta so that both Morgan and Sparta get the same amount of commerce income from each other.
2.
In recognition of the Spartan exploration advantage, Morgan would like to place an observer on the naval craft that met us.
For example: We would like screenshots of the naval craft that is now off our coast. As your foil moves we would like to see what it finds. At the end of each turn Sparta would post a screenshot of what the foil sees. If that particular craft ceased to explore, then screenshots from a suitable replacement would be provided.
Although I do not know the technical details of how this can be accomplished I suspect that amoung the two teams someone knows how to post partial screenshots.
Please let us know if you find the above proposal acceptable. The longer we wait, the further ahead the Gaians and Data Angels move ahead of us.
We would also like to discuss tech trading and research goals and perhaps form a coordinated research plan.
Mead
CDO (Chief Diplomatic Officer), Morgan Corp.
///End Post to Kassiopeia///
[quote]
Let's see if they go for it.
Although unmentioned in the post, we will round down the ECs.
Although they will share roughly half the Morgan bonus, a Whoha notes, we will still get the full tech and psych bonus.
For now, I want us to be more valuable to Sparta alive than dead.
Mead
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-SafaN-
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That 20 turn non trading prohibition: would it be for us alone or both of us?
I mean, can they trade it after they sold it too us?
We know they can't have researched that themselfes ...
What about contacts? Mayb those prices would be outrageous, but we can try
Greetz
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by jtsisyoda
Did you mean to exclude the psych and labs portion as Whoha was saying? (At least, I think that's what Whoha meant.) Your post to Kassi didn't seem to indicate that. I'm not trying to say yes or no on it-- just want to make sure there's no confusion... miscommunication can create conflict quickly. |
I mean that if we get 10 more ECs they get 5. Say we have 10 bases and get 1 extra credit for each base because of the Morgan bonus then they get 5.
For example in year 2142 we get 80 basic EC commerce plus 20 bonus commerce.
We have a 40/20/40 allocation.
2142 we get 40 ECs to Econ, 20 to Psych, 40 to Lab.
2143 we send 10 ECs to Sparta.
It is simple, it is generous, but we still get the full power of the additional ECs for our Psych and Lab.
I want us to be worth more to the Spartans alive than dead. Also I want to place an observer on their ship not only to see what it sees but, also to keep track of it.
Eventually, of course, we will have to withdraw from the deal. But let's at least meet the other factions before we do.
Mead
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Mead
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This is his response.
Mister Mead,
Your attitude is laudable and we the Junta are glad to see such clear desire of co-operation from the Corporation. We have certain allusions of an Data Angel - Gaian Alliance and agree with you that to counter such a threat, further work together in the field of research and economy is required.
As to what comes to the Treaty of Friendship, we accept the terms you have offered. The Federation will receive half of the income bonus provided by trade, we will leave the details and number-chruncing up to our respective information and economy officers to sort out. Payments can be made on once per year basis.
And thus, we agree to let a Morganite observer team be placed onboard SCC Hunter, the naval craft now in anchor outside your base. Our intelligence department will provide you with geographical imagery of its progress and discoveries in exchange for your credit payments. We must, however, strongly emphasise that control of this vessel will at all times remain under Spartan control.
If you have a good reason to suggest a certain course, to perhaps recover a Unity pod you know of, the military command is naturally open to your recommendations. The possible spoils of these discoveries will need to be discussed on a case-by-case basis.
Should disaster befall SCC Hunter or should it be needed for other duties, we can then negotiate on a suitable replacement vessel for your observers.
As what comes to a co-ordinate research plan, perhaps it is best first that we finalize the discussion I have opened in the Research forum on a technology you might be interested in, Gene Splicing.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.
I don't know why he is being unclear on the amount paid each year. I note that they will give us the screen shot after they get the money each year (there is potential for cheating us of the screenshot and of course always misinformation).
I would like to clarify the details with him before we commence with the treaty.
Mead
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arginine
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Since I think Gene Splicing was extorted (or stolen), and gave us a pretty high price for it, I think they are either playing hardball with us, or have not decided on how they are going to treat us, so they gave us an unfavorable deal.
I wonder how concerned they are about the Gaian-Angel alliance, or how much they know. Unlike us, the Spartans can extort the AIs quite readily or conquer their bases, and use cheap police units for drone control.
I bet the Spartans know they can cripple us if they act quickly and are pondering if they should cripple us,or have us as an ally.
Last edited by arginine on 13-10-2004 at 07:48
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Impaler[WrG]
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Cheif Manufacturing Officer of Morgan Industires
May 2002
time: 22:21
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Well I am glad we have hit the Diplomacy stage of the game. I would say negotiate down the price of Gene Splicing to about half what they are asking. In any event after PTS it will be more affordable and desirable for us.
We must point out that the revenue sharring is TEMPORARY. Agree too it for 10 turns or something like that but dont let them have the expectation that its perminent. This will come back to bite us if we dont make it clear right now.
We need to make contact with the AI's Zak and Lal as soon as possible to secure more trade that dosent need to be shared with Sparta. Contacting Angels/Gaians is also a priority for all we know Sparta may be lieing to us as to who is coperating with who.
Highest priority remains PTS with exploration/trade being second followed by Expantion of bases/infastructure.
Last edited by arginine on 13-10-2004 at 09:05
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arginine
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The other humans know that Morgan is reliant on trade. The other humans are not. They can decide if we get their trade routes or not. Humans make up 3 of the 5 potential trading partners, and they will talk to each other, and might end up comparing the revenue sharing deals they have with us. I don't think we will have much luck negotiating our revenue sharing with other humans down.
Another point: I would like to thank WhoHa who sort of figured out our gimmick.
// begin quote
excellent, what kass wants still puts us in the advantage. We get tech from trade, and he just gets ecs. We should do as he requests for the time being.
Heres how it works, we get the raw energy, that goes to tech/econ/psych, and from there we can give him econ only, no tech to make up the difference in the trading.
as for the tech trade, not yet, we need to get the pts, and we should be throwing our economy behind that in full.
// end quote
Namely, the other factions will use the RAW energy to figure out what ECON that will be revenue shared. With the PEG & Tree farms, the RAW energy is MULTIPLIED before becoming ECON. In effect, they recieve a LESS energy they think they are getting. Very clever.
Mead has sort of posted this in the Spartan diplomacy forums. The Spartans have posted a response stating EXACTLY how, commerce is differences are addressed. I don't want ANYONE to figure this out. I want that fact we know this to be CLASSIFIED. I want that post REMOVED, or REPLACED. I'd edit the entire message with something say "Ok, that's how it will be done, and state how they want the revenue sharing done". The Spartans have said how they want revenue sharing done, so LET'S DO IT HOW THE SPARTANS WANT IT DONE and NOT GIVE ANYONE NEW IDEAS.
We should still state that rates will be renegotiated in X turns, or if we end up working a deal with the Spartans let them know that they have a special deal and they officially recieve less.
Last edited by arginine on 13-10-2004 at 09:04
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arginine
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On another note, lets try to buy some commlinks from the Spartans, in particular the AIs. I am guessing the Spartans got the Angel & Gaian comm links from them.
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
***
We must point out that the revenue sharring is TEMPORARY. Agree too it for 10 turns or something like that but dont let them have the expectation that its perminent. This will come back to bite us if we dont make it clear right now.
***
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I was thinking of pointing out to them that the rate was subject to renegotiation from time to time, but thought it better to let it be left unsaid.
There is no need to remind them, now, that it is temporary. Whether we remind them now or tell them later, they will still be unhappy about a reduced rate of return once we do it.
When it comes time to renegotiate we better be in a position where they prefer to go along with the renegotiation rather than attack us.
In the interests of fair dealing we need to tell them the turn before we drop the amount. This way they can either teminate the treaty or continue it at the lower rate.
Several things will happen as time goes by.
They will be able to build more units/facilites with the addtional cash. Thier support burden will increase if they build too many.
Their (and our) income will go up as the number of cites goes up.
Under the current terms, the price of passage for our observer will go up, and the value of the intell (which is subject to misinformation) will decrease becuase we will start to deploy our ships.
With tree farms and other facilities the value of the raw energy we receive is more valuable than the ECs we share. Already, the Net Node at Morgan Industries multiplies the raw ECs received there.
They can kick us off the boat anytime they want (they should tell us the turn before we forward the ECs).
They (and us) can break the Treaty whenever we want.
We can reduce the amount any time we want (we should tell them the turn before we do so they can break the treaty if they want and kick us off the boat).
Mead
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arginine
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Hmm, getting gene splicing without having to do any research must have been pretty handy. Tech stealing from the AI is pretty handy. I'd push for a tech stealing operation to be established soon after getting access to the AI, but stealing techs makes the computer pissed at you, removing the possibility for trade.
Now, if we were to have a different faction do it and pass the techs on to us, we can get stolen tech and have trade. I envision us teaming up with a faction, and provide funding in exchange for any tech stolen.
I originally had the Angels in mind, but any faction will suffice. It would make a nice team building exercise. If the spartans have a base on the AI's mainland, they'd make a great partner. Yes, I am aware once the Spartans get HE: Chem, DAP is just 2 techs away.
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jtsisyoda
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COO, Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Jul 2003
time: 00:21
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The Gaians did finish the WP.
****
From Kassi in the Spartan Embassy:
quote:
Lack of any finalisation from the Morganite side has forced the Junta to reconsider the deal proposed earlier. Some in the Junta believe that the current terms are not favourable enough to us, considering how a treaty to us isn't quite as necessary as it is to the Morganites.
Therefore the Junta proposes that in addition to the 50% of extra trade income, the Morganites also pay for the running costs of SCC Hunter. We may not necessarily afford to upkeep it and thus need financial support for it. This would equate to 2 energy credits per turn.
The Junta is also wary of committing itself to a Treaty, so it also proposes that the Treaty be temporary, for a duration of five turns. This is standard procedure in interfactional relations in the Federation - that this was not in our initial proposal was because the Federation attempted to make our first encounter as amicable as possible, unfortunately due to your inactivity this may not be the case any longer.
The temporary nature is to ensure that such agreements do not become an unnecessary burden to our isolationist faction. Be most assured however, that through co-operation and gaining trust this Treaty will be most certainly extended after five years, and later on perhaps even upgraded to a Pact of Brotherhood.
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta. |
And my reply:
quote:
Sorry, when I posted the turn for you guys I didn't have to time say anything. I respectfully request that our temporary/apparent inactivity not be seen as disinterest in cooperation. We consider the deal finalized, but first you have to take Gene Splicing off the list in the Diplo box. I'm unable to take it off, otherwise I'd have accepted the treaty. If this is my error in rushing the turn, I apologize. (There's a reason Mead's the diplomat.) |
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Mead
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quote:
Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Boy they shure are full of themselve 
I say we turn this unit maintance thing down, they are getting a good deal as it is and they know it, we must show some backbone here. |
They are getting probing to see if they can improve th deal, also known as getting greedy.
This is the response I posted in the embassy:
quote:
Reply to : Kassiopeia
Well met - will this mean that you agree to the additional terms we have specified: the upkeep costs of SCC Hunter (2 ecs/turn) and a temporarity clause (initially five years)?
Major
Please do not feel that we are uninterested in trade with you.
We agree to a five year term. We do not agree to upkeep costs of SCC Hunter.
We remain committed to the agreement we outlined earlier, as clarified by myself and Major Googlie
quote:
On behalf of Major Kassiopeia and my my fellow Junta Officers, we understand that the payment represents one half of the additional income Morgan receives as a result of the Treaty.
We see that additional income as being, (using a different example) what we would see in our F4 screen:
"Sparta Command, commerce income, Treaty with Morgan ...... 4 ec's (they get 6) " The additional income is thus 2, of which we each share 1 each:
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As I stated earlier:
quote:
We understand and appreciate your concerns. Please understand that we do not get that additional commerce for free. Because of the Free Market, which helps make that income, we have problems with drones and exploring the world.
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In return for us sharing the bonus ECs Sparta would share the intel from the SCC Hunter.
My understanding is that we are trying to accept the treaty, but not the tech (its current cost is too high).
The sooner we are able to consumate the treaty, the sooner both of us are able to enjoy the additional income.
Mead
PS
If you feel I am not being responsive enough to you just let me know. Oftentimes it is not intentional, rather it is just evidence of laziness on my part. My thoughts were we had agreed to the treaty, we would accept it (assuming jtisyoda knew how to accept it without taking the tech [I didn't know how]), and the treaty would be in effect this year.
PPS
There are those within the Corporation that feel that we are sharing too much, considering the hurdles we have to overcome in order to get that bonus. There are others that feel that we should be given operational control of the ship (direct where it goes) instead of just being an observer.
I, however, feel that the deal as clarified by you, Googlie and myself is fair and equitable.
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If they and we accept the treaty just when and how does it take efect?
What are the mechanics?
How does them also offering tech complicate things?
Mead
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arginine
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I've only had to deal with computers for diplomacy. I would guess they are being aggressive. We did not say we we agreed to the terms, and were just idle.
In the past, the relative inactivity has ok, because we had already decided what we should do, and it took little time to do it. We didn't activity then. Now we have to determine how relations between the different factions will shape up. The spartans have a big advantage right now, as they have everyone's commlink and can talk to everyone. Hopefully our transport foil will get contact soon, and get us those contacts.
I was dissappointed we did not take the initiative and quickly reach decisions. We have done an ok job, but what is our strategy? How do we know if Morgan Industries has agreed to some issue? If we can't decide, I feel we will lose to those whom can, not to mention it is not fun.
I might as well become a lurker :P
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Mead
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Following is Sparta's Acceptance of the Treaty posted in the embassy.
They will also consider a lower price for the Gene Splicing.
What do we want to do with Gene Splicing?
I don't know what we will do with it. I know it is useful, but I thought we were beelining for the PEG. Do we need it right now?
Although I have no idea what it is worth to us right now, I think we should concentrate on the PTS and Techs for the PEG.
I don't want to ignore Sparta but I want some input before I respond to them.
Mead
quote:
(My latest Apolyton PM to you Mr. Mead is now redundant - please ignore it.)
It's fortunate that your inactivity has been unintentional - as I've stated before, we are not fond of hasty conclusions, but it's good to know that you have continued interest in us as we do have in you.
The Junta will accept the proposal in its current form: a temporary Treaty of Friendship for 5 years, the commerce income split as detailed already, and you receiving geographical knowledge from your observer on the Hunter. Be advised that the Junta might deem necessary to renegotiate the upkeep costs once the 5 year term is over.
Hopefully this will lead to an era of trusting, and above all, lucrative friendship.
The price for Gene Splicing (250 credits with a 20 year trade restriction) is open for negotiation, if you feel the price is too steep feel free to propose a new one for the Junta to deliberate on.
On behalf of the Junta,
Major Kassiopeia, Diplomatic and Foreign Affairs Officer of the Spartan Junta.
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10-10-2004 02:14
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