11-10-2004 09:58									#1
	2143: Pre-planning discussion and build/movement orders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The Angels

So when we open the turn we'll have the Angels commlink, so we need to develop a strategy toiwards them

Trade - we should sell them Gene Splicing for sure, and maybe Doc Mobility (as we did with the Gaians), and sound them out re their interest in Secrets

Morgan

I'm assuming that we'll be treatied when the turn reaches us (they are fickle things in the diplo window - I should post in the Embassy for jtsisyoda - 'cos when he opens his turn he'll see our pre-accepted Treaty - if he hits "treaty" then it reverts to 'negotiating' he has to hit "Accept" then the Treaty is in force)

They want a shopping list of the techs, or type of techs, that we can supply in our "gunrunners" role. We should get that going in this 2-player interregnum so that when they get the turn they can execute and ec's or techs in the diplo window on an accepted basis for us to get when we open ours.

I don't know if we'll see any commerce profit-sharing this next turn - I'll need to test it on the simulator to see if they'll get 2143 commerce bonuses after they accept the treaty at the turn's beginning

Gaians

They have the 2143 turn right now, so i imagine that the diplo-pouches will be flying back and forth in the Embassy as they seek to get their hands on our juicy techs as cheaply as possible.

Kassi will be busy !!!!!

Last edited by Googlie on 16-10-2004 at 01:58

	16-10-2004 02:03									#2
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Oh - and another thing - we will be infiltrating the uni this turn, all being well, and will be able to see the techs he has that we don't, then stealing one immediately after.

In the sim a few days ago, I did that, and got a wrist slap from Zak (and he's presumably a bit friendlier even now, after our trade exchange)

If we find that he has Doc Loyalty, how does the Junta feel about aither buying it from him before trying to steal a tech (in case it doesn't come up as a tech to steal)?

I doubt that he has it, though, 'cos in the Ind Auto trade he offered biogenetics, and i countered with what the Boc offered, which was Secrets (I think that the game mechanics always lets you ask for the highest tech the AI has that you lack)

Mind you, both Secrets and Doc Loyalty are equibalent level techs, so he might have. (heck, he might even have Int Int !!)

	16-10-2004 03:34									#3
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I read in the 2142 Battle Report that the Crypteia in GH is a placeholder production?

quote: Gythium Harbour – Scout commissioned – put a Crypteia there as a placeholder

What would you really want to produce there? A Navy Seals task force? If so, what would you think of sending a few loads of Olympian iron ore to the Gythium shipyards? (Or in other words, use a crawler in combination with the 'delete-unit-design' trick to hurry production in GH?)

	16-10-2004 03:45									#4
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I'd go for that.

That way we'd get at the Gaians and Angels, to infiltrate them (or even Lal)

	16-10-2004 04:04									#5
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Or, how about a former at GH? Or, a navy seals would work. Although moving a crawler from OA to GH and back to the min special would lose us 4 turns of using that crawler. Therefore, I strongly protest to that.

Wow, excellent diplomatic deals this last turn. Two turns ago, I never would have thought that we'd have IA, EthCalc, and SotHB just two years later! Woohoo!

	16-10-2004 04:10									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Although moving a crawler from OA to GH and back to the min special would lose us 4 turns of using that crawler. Therefore, I strongly protest to that.

If I understand the concept correctly, we lose the crawler completely, cashing it in.

(but you're right in that it'll take 4 turns to commission another crawler)

	16-10-2004 04:29									#7
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Ah, I was assuming we were thinking about crawling that 7 min tile to GH. But anyway, cashing it in basically means the same thing. Sacrificing that crawler will mean we'll have to wait 4 more turns for another crawler (unless we rush one, but that will cost). If we freed up the worker working the 7 min tile, we could transfer that worker to maybe a 2-1 tile. That means we'll lose 8 nuts and 4 mins from cashing in that crawler. It would be worth it if we were confident that we could infiltrate the others, but I would assume that the Gaians and Data Angels already have some basic probe defences up, or will have them up by the time our lone foil arrives. So, I don't see much point in pursuing that course.

Also, is this unit design workshop trick legal? I don't remember it being mentioned in the official rules thread. Should we ask the mods to make sure?

	16-10-2004 04:38									#8
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isn't anything that's not forbidden allowed?

	16-10-2004 04:54									#9
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Well, I read over the official rules thread, and it didn't say anything against this (in fact, it said there was "Total freedom in Design Workshop" so I guess it would be okay.

	16-10-2004 05:05									#10
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yeah!!!

	16-10-2004 05:13									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Ah, I was assuming we were thinking about crawling that 7 min tile to GH. But anyway, cashing it in basically means the same thing. Sacrificing that crawler will mean we'll have to wait 4 more turns for another crawler (unless we rush one, but that will cost). If we freed up the worker working the 7 min tile, we could transfer that worker to maybe a 2-1 tile. That means we'll lose 8 nuts and 4 mins from cashing in that crawler.

A crawler could work some squares en route to a new base, reducing the resource loss a little. But you're right of course there is still an inefficiency because of resource loss.
However consider the following:

Hurrying GH Navy Seals production with an OA crawler would cost the following:
8 nuts & 34 mins from OA transformed into 30 mins over at GH.

On the other hand, hurrying GH Navy Seals production while there's still 30 mins missing would cost no less than *105* credits.

Having this in mind, I'd consider the first possibility (hurry with crawler) the better option of the two, even though there isn't 100% efficiency.

quote: It would be worth it if we were confident that we could infiltrate the others, but I would assume that the Gaians and Data Angels already have some basic probe defences up, or will have them up by the time our lone foil arrives. So, I don't see much point in pursuing that course.

Good point indeed. Another possibility could of course be to crawler-hurry a Navy Seals taskforce in the new Rio Grande base? With such an extra unit we'd have a group of three probes to try infiltration at a nearby Morganite base. (Or do we want to forget about Morganite infiltration for now, so we can focus more resources on fomer & crawler construction etc?)

	16-10-2004 05:18									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter I would assume that the Gaians and Data Angels already have some basic probe defences up, or will have them up by the time our lone foil arrives

I dunno about that.

Do we? Will we?

I'd imagine their probeteam efforts are geared to getting information rather than preserving it, much as ours are.

	16-10-2004 05:22									#13
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Umm, so what about the repercussions of infiltrating? Will this not mean a vendetta or something?

	16-10-2004 05:29									#14
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no - infiltration is clean - it's everything else that triggers the "must declare vendetta" rule
(even if we kill a few probe defenders in the act of gaining infiltration)

	16-10-2004 05:36									#15
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Ahh, relieved to hear that.

	16-10-2004 06:11									#16
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I've been thinking...perhaps I'm underestimating the value of infiltration. I'm not all that pbem experienced, so I've not had to deal too much with being in the dark as far as what opponents are doing. I suppose trying for infiltration is worth a little risk and potential loss. Anyway, I'm good with whatever the majority decides. I guess that crawler cash-in deal isn't so bad after all, considering it can harvest resources on the way. I totally forgot about that.

	17-10-2004 17:09									#17
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semi off topic... i've started a pbem w/my 10-yr old son and was wondering how sharing maps, tech, etc is done? we 'contacted' each other via commlink, but the pop-up screen only has limited options for diplomacy and tech trade. any help would be appreciated

	17-10-2004 17:32									#18
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Not sure what you mean by "limited options" Is it the same choices that we have here? (and after selecting "Offer all techs" the screen fills with those techs that you have that he doesnt )

The world map doesn't come up on this list as a tech to offer. To give the map you have to select the "Share tech" choice and that gives the techs one by one (with an asterisk deonoting common techs). The map is on this list to toggle:

Share Techs

	17-10-2004 18:54									#19
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What will we set to produce in our new base next year? A synthmetal prototype after all (thus losing our prototype hurry methods for now )? Or something else, eg a former, hoplite, probe, ship...

	17-10-2004 19:29									#20
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it'll have a probe team in place when founded, but I thought we were considering a foil that could sit in the bay to ward off Morgan probefoils?

(Or maybe use those ten free minerals to fasttrack a seaformer?)

	17-10-2004 23:10									#21
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Or what about a regular former? Now that we have IA, we need to get more forests and mines as soon as possible. (And in 8 or so turns we'll also be able to start on some boreholes. If we have 4 or 5 formers to gang-form it, we'd get it done in just 5 or 6 turns.)

	18-10-2004 00:08									#22
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If we go on a Yang binge, he has 5 bases accessable to us by sea (plus a couple more on the south side of the jungle that I don't know if we're linked to by ocean)

His navy is (currently) negligible - 1 sloop

I say we go for a Navy Seals unit

EDIT: If we build as Navy Seals squad at Gythium Harbour, then I'm OK with another former at Rio Grande, using the ten minerals as a rush foundation

Last edited by Googlie on 18-10-2004 at 03:47

	18-10-2004 02:39									#23
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Googlie, thanks for the share tech info

	18-10-2004 03:46									#24
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Ok - back to the 2143 turn, which is almost on us.

Agreed or proposed moves:

• Colony Pod founds Rio Grande where it currently is standing (54:12)
  
• Rio Grande starts - and rushes - a Former (I know, last post I made I wanted a Navy Seals unit, but we do need more formers to prep the terrain for crawling. And that's a juicy tile that'll be between RG and FB - 5 mins with a mine on it
  
• Fort Buster's Probe team will relocate to Rio Grande
  
• Sparta Command's Crypteia go to Gythium Harbour as probe defender there
  
• Probe en-route from OA (currently outside Santiago Citadel) will divert to probe-defend at Minas Tirith
  
• Elite Impact Infantryman returns to Sector Cratersouth, for temporary garrison duty, freeing up Shinsengumi
  
• Shinsengumi moves to Fort Buster to add garrison there in expectation of a B-drone when pop reaches 2
  
• Hermes moves 1 tile east, and disembarks one longstrider
  
• Probe moves to whatever base is lurking on 79:11, and infiltrates Zak, whereupon we take stock
  
• If deemed worthwhile after the infiltration, second longstrider will disembark and steal tech, or will remain in Hermes on standby
  
• If second probe action undertaken, transport will use remaining movement points to head back to VV, otherwise remain on standby
  
• Hunter will E x 1 and see what Morgan base is at 29:19, then loop south and east as planned if terrain permits
  
• Invincible will move SW x 4 to make landfall on the northwest shore of what looks like Mt Planet (or a Mount Planet clone)
  
• R-112 will see if it can move anywhere
  
• Pegasus will move E x 3 towards its Hunter rendezvous point

Last edited by Googlie on 18-10-2004 at 04:12

	18-10-2004 08:23									#25
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As an afterthought:

Why don't we backtrack Pegasus and pick up the longstrider probe team that's now earmarked for Minas Tirith. He can drop off at Great Collective and steal a Yang tech (and will be repatriated to Minas Tirith if successful anyway?)

Podpopping would just be delayed 2 turns, and would give the Hunter a bit more time to get around the islands and necks of land that must be joining Hades to Morganland

And if we decide eventually not to go the Hive infiltration route, we have next turn and the one after to just drop off the probe at Minas Tirith anyway

	18-10-2004 22:52									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Ok - back to the 2143 turn, which is almost on us.

Sounds all great to me.

quote: Rio Grande starts - and rushes - a Former

IIRC RG will produce 4 mins if it works the mineral bonus, so that would mean (25 / 10) * 6 = 15c hurry cost.

quote: If we want to prototype Syntharmor, change Santiago Citadel's Hoplite Infantry to a Hoplite Guardsman (infantry completes in 2 turns, guardsman in 4)

That would mean losing the ability to prototype/crawler-hurry though.

quote: Diplomatic Moves[list][*]As soon as Yang meets Lal he'll call elections, then everyone has everyone else's commlinks. I suggest this turn a frenetic diplomatic offensive to get everything we can thru trades - brokering third party as well, to ensure that after elections are called there's nothing that a faction can get from another that hasn't already gone though us

Just for the record, I think it might take a while after all before Yang meets everyone. The turn we infiltrated Yang his two laser foils were heading straight east, making me think they were on a mission to meet Lal. However already the turn after or so they changed direction - perhaps in response to the Hive-Gaian war? And this year I had a look again at those ships, and I noticed one was destroyed, while the other 80% damaged. It's of course possible they both ran into some IoDs while en route to Lal, but an alternative I thought of is that they're having artillery duels with some Gaian spore launchers or so - in any case not in the immediate neighbourhood of Lal.

	18-10-2004 23:05									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Primus Pilus semi off topic... i've started a pbem w/my 10-yr old son and was wondering how sharing maps, tech, etc is done? we 'contacted' each other via commlink, but the pop-up screen only has limited options for diplomacy and tech trade. any help would be appreciated

This gives me an idea...


Considering the experience (from questions I've been fielding), of some of our Junta officer corps...

How about we (the officers of the Junta) play a MP PBEm game with just ourselves?

It would give some of us an idea of how things work against human opponents, and how quickly certain events/situations can effect strategy. It could be considered just the same as when NATO has their yearly war games / maneouvers.

Edit: It would have to be with SMAC, of course. As I'm aware that Zeiter, and Snoddasmannen do not have SMAX.

	18-10-2004 23:08									#28
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I like the idea. We should probably arrange it to have the same factions we have in the actual game. Googlie could even come up with a mockup of the actual game terrain based on wild inference of what we know now.

	18-10-2004 23:10									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter Also, is this unit design workshop trick legal? I don't remember it being mentioned in the official rules thread. Should we ask the mods to make sure?

It is legal. That's why I questioned it in the KK thread. The mods had looked over it and didn't say anything.

	18-10-2004 23:18									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie it'll have a probe team in place when founded, but I thought we were considering a foil that could sit in the bay to ward off Morgan probefoils? (Or maybe use those ten free minerals to fasttrack a seaformer?)

I'm trying not to shoot my mouth off too much in your turn processing thread, but...

I'm pretty opposed to seaformers (especially before fusion reactors). I've already explained why somewhere else (in one of the multitudes of threads here).

I'm not too found (<- understatement) of having a static naval unit for defence either. If you want to kill probe foils quickly near a base. Build an artillery unit (any kind of arty what-so-ever will do).