15-12-2004 13:46									#241
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I think the main thing is to take into account how the message will be received by those on the receiving end of the pile drive.

I think the less said the better, for a little while.

Incidently, I'm sure a lot of people from other teams saw the threads by beta and MZ during our darker hours to be amusing, and fun. However, very many of us saw them otherwise.

Lego seems to be asking us to leave it alone and just get on with putting them out of their misery. We should respect that.

	19-12-2004 16:20									#242
	Increase Your PM Length

Just as important as Lego's feelings are the Real Life issues of censorship and free speech.

No-one is directing abuse or hatred at Lego, and if an RL artist was banned for gentle satire by a government because someone, somewhere was offended by it, we should rightly be concerned about the authoritarian nature of that government.

Anyone remember 'Life of Brian' by the Pythons? Many people were offended by that and wanted to ban it. Salman Rushdie had death sentences imposed upon him by various Ayatollahs.

There are a lot of things that offend me in the world - for example 95% of TV adverts. I use the mute button. Many newspapers are full of trash. I don't read them. Many violent images repulse me. I avert my eyes. Who is forcing Legonians to read MZ's public posts?

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't want to make a public fuss about this, but I think we should be allowed to make public our team's subscription to the now-banned-and-censored Glory of News.

Here is my email to MZ on behalf of the 'Gathering News Agency'. I would like to post it the public GoN thread, as the subtlest message possible to Lego that they might be depriving a wider audience of a worthy read.

What do we think?

------------

(copy of text)

quote: Dear Glory of News Editor, We are sorry to hear of the disruption caused by the war to your normal distribution channels. The Gathering News Agency would like to subscribe to the special courier service as advertised. We have Electronics, if the Boulder Dam powering our cities is anything to go by, and I think we've built an airport by now. Regards Hurricane Hearst Gathering News Editor.

	19-12-2004 18:15									#243
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I'm not sure, CH. It's not a form of censorship per se, it's one of respect, and decency. Life of Brian might be one example (anyone wanted to ban that film?), but think 9/11. In any disaster, jokes appear within days, ridiculing the situation... it's one of the mechanisms humans use to deal with something which is cold horror. In the case of 9/11, it took weeks if not months before the first internet jokes were distributed. Not that nobody could think of somethign funny to say before, but it just wasn't right to laugh. Yet.

My guess is that this situation is going to change with Lego shortly. It's about a week after the initial shock, in another, MZ's stories might be appreciated by everyone again, including the Legos. Personally, I would not go about posting publicly about this yet, there is no reason to force anything. It will get there on its own too.

DeepO

	19-12-2004 19:12									#244
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True, the mood may lift in a week or so.

When Life of Brian was released in Britain in the 70's it caused as much shock and outrage as the Sex Pistols, with church figures and society's moral guardians leading the clamour to ban it.

I'm not sure if I can equate the mass slaughter and earth-shaking aftermath of 911 with the hurt feelings of three or four guys, though.

	19-12-2004 19:48									#245
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus I'm not sure if I can equate the mass slaughter and earth-shaking aftermath of 911 with the hurt feelings of three or four guys, though.

It's not nearly in the same league, of course. However, remember this: 9/11 was only a true devastating shock for Americans, and possibly the British as well due to their closeness to the US. There are many other countries in this world, which were of course also shocked, but to who it didn't affect them personally at all. I know I would feel more emotional attachment to losing Stormia in 1 turn, than I had when the towers collapsed (and by coincidence, I was one of the first to follow it, I saw the second crash live on tv). A bit far from my personal world, you see... this in no way means I would value a game over human lives.

I can imagine many people, globally, did not even feel sad like I did on 9/11, and still no jokes appeared. And the first ones were, as far as I could tell, American. As long as Lego can't laugh about it, maybe we should give them some room. Right about now, they see with their own eyes what kind of carnage the war really was.

DeepO

	20-12-2004 23:57									#246
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Well, here's a thing. Three cheers for Beta, for saying what I wanted to say!

poll standings at 1900 GMT, 20/12/04

	21-12-2004 05:26									#248
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I voted 'continue'.

	21-12-2004 08:00									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Just as important as Lego's feelings are the Real Life issues of censorship and free speech. No-one is directing abuse or hatred at Lego, and if an RL artist was banned for gentle satire by a government because someone, somewhere was offended by it, we should rightly be concerned about the authoritarian nature of that government.

I don't disagree with you entirely, CH. Were we being told by the mods not to post our news stories, I would be very agitated about it, [mingmode]even though this is a private site and freedom has very little to do with it. [/mingmode]

However, the decision by a publisher to respect the feelings of parts of an audience is a different sort of thing. I think it simply reflects well on MZ that he took the feelings of Lego into account. Additionally, I feel that he will be invited by Lego to resume public posting. I think that a lot of nastiness will have been avoided by MZ simply acting with decency in the first place.

Of course, it is good of you and beta to bring the issue up. Everyone seems to be doing the right thing, so no complaints here.

	29-12-2004 19:06									#250
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: battle report complete The battle for Abilene naval assault 1. marine attacks 12/12 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 9/12. 2. marine attacks 9/12 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army promotes to 10/13. 3. marine attacks 10/13 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 9/13. 4. marine attacks 9/13 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 7/13. 5. marine attacks 7/13 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 5/13. 6. marine attacks 5/13 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 5/13. 7. marine attacks 5/13 inf army in Abilene. Marine dies. Army 3/13. 8. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Marine 1/4. (replay: 2/4. Probably typo.) 9. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf promotes to 3/5 10. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 1/4 11. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 1/4 12. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 2/4 13. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 14. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Inf killed . Marine 2/4. 15. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf promotes to 3/5 16. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 17. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 18. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf promotes to 4/5 19. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 4/4 20. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf promotes to 5/5 21. marine attacks 5/5 inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 4/5 22. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 2/4 23. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 2/4 24. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 1/4 25. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 26. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 4/4 27. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf promotes to 5/5 28. marine attacks 5/5 inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 4/5 29. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 30. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 31. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 32. marine attacks inf in Abilene. Marine dies. Inf 3/4 intermezzo: the Lego revenge 33. 1/3 Lego tank has ZoC bombard on a stack of 3 marines passing by. twice. 1 marine goes to 2/4, another to 3/4. Curse to the auto-move, there was plenty of room to avoid that lonely tank! Oh well, the tank will pay for it later on. naval assault continues 34. 2/4 marine attacks inf. Marine dies. inf 3/4. 35. marine attacks inf. Inf killed. Marine 1/4. 36. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 1/4. 37. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 2/4. 38. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 3/4. 39. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 2/4. 40. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 1/4. 41. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 2/4. 42. marine attacks inf. Marine dies. Inf 2/4. 43. 3/4 marine attacks 4/5 inf. Marine dies. Inf 3/5. 44. 3/4 marine attacks 4/5 inf. Marine dies. Inf 2/5. 45. marine attacks 4/5 inf. Marine dies. Inf 3/5. land based attack on the battered defenses 46. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 2/5. 47. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 2/4. 48. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 2/4. 49. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 1/4. 50. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 1/4. 51. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 2/5. 52. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank retreats. Inf 2/4. 53. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank retreats. Inf 2/4. 54. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 2/5. 55. Tank attacks 3/4 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf promotes to 3/5. 56. Tank attacks 3/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 1/4. some slackers were discovered, hiding in their transports. Sent into the fray 57. Marine attacks 3/5 inf in Abilene. Marine killed. Inf 2/5. 58. Marine attacks 3/5 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Marine 1/4. land assault continues 59. Tank attacks 3/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 60. Tank attacks 3/5 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf 1/5. 61. Tank attacks 3/13 army in Abilene. Army killed. Tank 3/4. 62. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank promotes to 3/5. 63. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 64. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 4/4. 65. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 4/4. 66. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 67. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 68. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 4/4. 69. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank promotes to 3/5. 70. Tank attacks 2/4 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 2/4. 71. Tank attacks 2/5 Inf in Abilene. Tank destroyed. Inf 1/5. 72. Tank attacks 2/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank promotes to 5/5. 73. Tank attacks 2/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 4/4. 74. Tank attacks 2/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 75. Tank attacks 2/5 Inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 2/4. 76. MI attacks 1/4 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI 2/4. 77. MI attacks 1/4 inf in Abilene. MI killed. Inf promotes to 2/5. 78. Tank attacks 2/5 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. Tank 3/4. 79. MI attacks 1/4 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI 3/4. 80. MI attacks 1/4 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI promotes to 3/5. 81. MI attacks 1/4 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI 4/4. 82. MI attacks 1/5 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI 3/4. 83. MI attacks 1/5 inf in Abilene. Inf killed. MI 2/4. We capture the last Lego city, Abilene. Leader shot (not hung by the balls this time ). Bomber destroyed. artillery bombardments on land units 84. Artillery shells 2/4 tank at former Nou Camp site. Misses. 85. Artillery shells 2/4 tank at former Nou Camp site. hits. Tank now 1/4. 86. Artillery shells 2/4 tank at Port Sacrifice 4. hits. Tank now 1/4. final land attacks 87. Tank attacks 1/4 Tank at Nou Camp ruins. 1/4 Tank destroyed. Tank 4/4. 88. Tank attacks 1/4 Tank at Port Sacrifice 4. 1/4 Tank destroyed. Tank 3/4. 89. Tank attacks 1/3 Tank at ruins of Legopolis 23. 1/3 Tank destroyed. Tank promotes to 4/5. naval battle 90. 1/4 DD attacks 2/5 BB Kloreepville. 1/4 DD sinks. Kloreepville 2/5. 91. 1/5 DD attacks 2/5 BB Kloreepville. Kloreepville sinks. DD 1/5 92. 2/4 DD attacks 1/4 BB Panama. Panama sinks. DD 1/4. land to sea bombardment 93. Artillery bombards CV Tiberius Kerekes. Hits. CV 3/4. 94. Artillery bombards 3/4 CV Tiberius Kerekes. Hits. CV 2/4. 95. Artillery bombards 2/4 CV Tiberius Kerekes. Hits. CV 1/4. 96. Artillery bombards IR Anvil. Hits. Anvil 2/4. 97. Artillery bombards 2/4 IR Anvil. Hits. Anvil 1/4. Totals: - 46 marine attacks. 4 marines survive, taking 4 infs down. 42 marines lost. - 32 tank attacks. 6 tanks lost. 2 retreats. 1 Lego army, 20 infs and 3 tanks killed. - 7 MI attacks. 1 MI lost, 6 infs, 1 leader and 1 bomber destroyed. Last city taken. - 8 artillery bombards. 7 hits for 8 hp. - 3 DD attacks. 1 DD lost, 2 BB sunk. grand total: 88 attacks, 36 victories, 2 retreats, 50 defeats. (sorry, MZ. we now claim to have fought the bloodiest battle in this war) We lost 42 marines, 6 tanks, 1MI, 1 DD. Lego lost 1 army, 30 infs, 3 tanks, 2 BB, 1 bomber, 1 leader, and 1 city. DeepO

Up for 24 hours before going public.

DeepO

	30-12-2004 15:59									#251
	Tired of ads?

no comments, so I'm posting this.

I'm hesitating on the screenshots for last turn... would it be time to post them? I think we showed enough respect for Lego so far.

DeepO

	30-12-2004 17:02									#252
	Tired of ads?

Maybe suggest it to the forum first - ask if the public objects to them being posted.

	30-12-2004 17:05									#253
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Good idea. I'll ask.

DeepO

	30-12-2004 18:58									#254
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quote: DeepO: Life of Brian might be one example (anyone wanted to ban that film?),

quote: On its initial UK release the film was banned by some town councils. The film was also banned for eight years in the Republic of Ireland and for a year in Norway (it was marketed in Sweden as "the movie that is so funny it was banned in Norway!"). The film was not released in Italy until 1990, eleven years after it was made.

It was a pretty big thing at the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python's_Life_of_Brian

	30-12-2004 19:00									#255
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catching up, alva? Or just a slow news day, and rereading ald posts

Thanks for the link, BTW

DeepO

	30-12-2004 19:06									#256
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quote: On its initial UK release the film was banned by some town councils (several even took great pleasure in banning it, even though they had no cinemas within their boundaries)

Now, why does this strike me as a very good characterisation of the British?

DeepO

	30-12-2004 22:39									#257
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Zargon has given the OK to the screenshots.

	30-12-2004 22:54									#258
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by DeepO quote: On its initial UK release the film was banned by some town councils (several even took great pleasure in banning it, even though they had no cinemas within their boundaries) Now, why does this strike me as a very good characterisation of the British? DeepO

Even though the British state has transformed itself from the traditional 'Christian-Conservative' outlook of the past, the current 'Liberal-Humanitarian' atmosphere ends up just as authoritarian as in the old days of the Python bans.

A controversial play in Birmingham has recently had to close after violent attacks on the theatre by a religious group who claimed to be offended. The attitude from the state is not one of resolve to protect democracy from violence, but to support the withdrawal of the play on the grounds of 'best not upset anyone'. This sends a message to other censorious and autocratic elements that violence is the best way to shut people up who you disagree with.

Rest assured though, DeepO, there are many British people, in the spirit of the Pythons themselves, who would not wish themselves to be characterised as a nation of knee-jerk gaggers and censors.

	30-12-2004 22:55									#259
	Got spare money?

I just noticed... I'm off to edit the post. I'll check one final time whether there is nothing on those screenies that could harm us, Lego knowing we have a chain is no longer important, as they have no land units on Legoland anymore.

DeepO

	30-12-2004 23:02									#260
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

CH, that was not exactly what I meant with the quote. I have seen a documentary a while ago on some board (forgot the name), which was responsible for censoring movies in the 50s and 60s in the UK. It was interesting for sure. Belgians are a bit more open it seems to me, but we had our things as well.

What I did find very English was that even in the case of a censoring town council, they do manage to make the ban pythonesque by banning a movie in a city, where the movie can't be played anyway. It's the absurdity I enjoyed, even in such sad rulings.

DeepO

	30-12-2004 23:08									#261
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by DeepO What I did find very English was that even in the case of a censoring town council, they do manage to make the ban pythonesque by banning a movie in a city, where the movie can't be played anyway. It's the absurdity I enjoyed, even in such sad rulings. DeepO

Yeah, the irony is pythonesque, and that was your point! I got a bit Off Topic rambling about the historical development of British Censorious attitudes.

Speaking of bans, what about the banning of the F1 Grand Prix at Spa? Was it really about tobacco advertising as the Belgian authorities claimed, or was it a Flemish-Walloon spat as a Franco-Belgian friend of mine suggested?

	30-12-2004 23:28									#262
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Walloons tend to see a lot of things in a communal setting... in this case they have no point to make, though. And there is a major difference: tobacco advertising has been banned in Belgium for several years, and specifically for the F1, an exemption was made. This was coded in a federal law no less, and even previously ammended to extend by 2 years.

But in the end, this compromise had to end, and the ban had to become for the whole of Belgium, including Spa. It was very political at the time, though, you've got to remember that our federal government was a coalition of 6 parties at that moment (3 on for each language, the liberals, socialists, and greens (smallest)) (well, even more actually, but some of the smaller ones were absorbed into those 6). On Flemish side, it was written in the governing agreement that the ban had to become general. For changing a federal law, you need majorities for Belgian as a whole, and for both of the languages.

Now, the law was already in effect, and in order to change it, all 6 parties had to comply. The 4 parties in opposition would not help the government, even if in principle the Catholic Flemish party was for changing the law (they did so a couple of years ago, when they were in government). On Flemish side, there was no majority to change the law, as both the green and the socialists didn't want it, and the catholics weren't going to help the liberals. And, in order to keep the coalition (a liberal-socialist-green coalition is very fragile), the liberals voted against as well.

So, no ammendment. I think it didn't even came to a vote, as this discussion was all done outside of the senate and house of commons.

Belgian politics is complicated... very complicated. And in many cases the Flemish and Walloons interpret certain events very different. In reality, the loss of the F1 in Spa cost Flanders more in revenue than it did for our compadres (which was why the liberals were for changing the law in the first place), but somewhere it got mangled into an argument on Walloon employment rates on their side.

And still, I prefer our system over any 2-parties system as is present in both the UK and US. That oversimplifies the views of people, life is complicated, so why can't politics be.

Hum. To stear this post a bit more on topic, the screenshots have been added to the public thread

DeepO

	30-12-2004 23:32									#263
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

BTW, I lived for over 20 years less than 200m away from that other Belgian circuit, which previously held F1 races: Terlaemen. It was a communal decision that moved the F1 to Spa (which is only a few kilometers from the language barrier), even if all riders and Eckelstone (sp?) prefer Terlaemen.

We didn't mind. F1 brings a lot of noise, in a rural area

DeepO

	31-12-2004 17:10									#264
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Belgian politics is complicated... very complicated.

Bwahh, only a little bit.

quote: And still, I prefer our system over any 2-parties system as is present in both the UK and US.

Yup, though I wouldn't mind separating the two. I know less of Southern politics than I know of English or American.