13-10-2004 22:31									#31
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You can always do a write in.

yah, i might still do that.

	13-10-2004 22:33									#32
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Shouldn't these bishops be out protecting child-molester priests?

GO **** YOURSELF BISHOPS...

the church should not involve itself in politics...

	13-10-2004 22:50									#33
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@ Sava

	13-10-2004 22:52									#34
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@ yourself cockknocker!

	13-10-2004 23:01									#35
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Chill.

	13-10-2004 23:02									#36
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*note the smiley... that means I'm joking and not seriously calling him names

	13-10-2004 23:06									#37
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And I'll agree that the Catholic church should clean up it's own act in regards to all the kiddie diddling.

But I don't see what that has to do about an individual voicing his own opinion. Yes, it might be viewed as scare coercion tactics. Labor unions have perfected coercion tactics.

	13-10-2004 23:19									#38
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I don't agree with unions doing it either... but the thing about unions is... They don't necessarily have any standing to tell someone they are EVIL or GOING TO HELL or NEED CONFESSION.

The church can be pro-Bush... that's fine... but don't tell people they are sinning voting for Kerry. That's just retarded.

	13-10-2004 23:22									#39
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Sava... why not?

It's a part of Catholic doctrine. Catholics, presumably, believe in Catholic doctrine. Therefore, as long as the statement is actually a true statement, there's no problem at all, it's just empirical fact.

However, even if it WERE just the Bishop's opinion... so what? Isn't the point of freedom of religion being able to freely state your religious or moral beliefs? If you think abortion is wrong, then CLEARLY there's something wrong with voting for someone who supports abortion (though there are other issues and it may be the lesser of two evils).

	13-10-2004 23:24									#40
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quote: That's just retarded.

Well, we *are* talking about Catholic Bishops here, Sava. I mean, seriously, what do you expect?

-Arrian

	13-10-2004 23:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Well, we *are* talking about Catholic Bishops here, Sava. I mean, seriously, what do you expect? -Arrian

true...

	13-10-2004 23:42									#42
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Yes, bishops aren't the cream of the crop.

I'm just happy that my years of being an alter boy didn't lead to childhood trauma.

	13-10-2004 23:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by rah And I'll agree that the Catholic church should clean up it's own act in regards to all the kiddie diddling. But I don't see what that has to do about an individual voicing his own opinion. Yes, it might be viewed as scare coercion tactics. Labor unions have perfected coercion tactics.

It doesn't matter what ****ing organization we're talking about.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

	13-10-2004 23:50									#44
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While not a big fan also, organization have as much right as individuals to participate in the political process.

Anything less would be undemocratic.

	14-10-2004 00:01									#45
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everyone is entitlled to their opinion

	14-10-2004 00:09									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber everyone is entitlled to their opinion

but in this case he had to make clear that this was his opinion as a man and not as a bishop.

that crosses the line of separation between church and state.

	14-10-2004 00:11									#47
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No it doesn't. For one, it is his opinion as a bishop, and two, he's not by any stretch of imagination an agent of the state! Neither, obviously, is the Church.

	14-10-2004 00:14									#48
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by appealing to the religeous convictions of the catholics in order to influence the outcome of the elections he is misusing his position.

	14-10-2004 00:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis by appealing to the religeous convictions of the catholics in order to influence the outcome of the elections he is misusing his position.

Hmmm... union stewards do the same thing

	14-10-2004 00:17									#50
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No, he isn't - he's using it properly, in fact!

Seperation of church and state means the government does not support any particular religion, not that the government is not supported by any religions. If people aren't allowed to vote based on what they believe, what the hell SHOULD the vote based on?

	14-10-2004 00:22									#51
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they are allowed to vote according to their believes. it's just when one of the religeous institutes tries to influence their followers vote that you get dangerously close to lose the separation between church and state. like i said, he is entitled to voice his opinion as a man, he can make the official stance of the church vis avis abortion clear, but he can not make political statements.

	14-10-2004 00:24									#52
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"Influence"?

There's no coercion; he providing an argument! There can't possibly be something wrong with "influencing" someone's vote by providing reasons why they ought to vote for that person! Otherwise all political discussion would be inherently illegal.

There's no violation of seperation of church and state here at all!

	14-10-2004 00:29									#53
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he is using the institute of confession isn't he ?
that's one inch away from saying that if you vote for kerry you lost your place in heaven. and that is misusing his position in the church.

	14-10-2004 00:31									#54
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Even if he said the last one, it wouldn't be!

It's his religious belief!

Moreover, he's reminding those who believe in his faith of what that means.

	14-10-2004 00:31									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Hmmm... union stewards do the same thing

unions are not part of a religeous belief as far as i know. their sole purpose is to protect the social interests of a group within the society. and in this i agree, it is a pitty that they became 'politicized'.

	14-10-2004 00:33									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Even if he said the last one, it wouldn't be! It's his religious belief! Moreover, he's reminding those who believe in his faith of what that means.

indeed, HIS religeous belief.

	14-10-2004 00:34									#57
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Most Catholics I know just ignore the pope.

	14-10-2004 00:37									#58
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis indeed, HIS religeous belief.

Yeah?

He's not imposing it on anybody. In fact, anyone who doesn't share his beliefs wouldn't care.

And, in case you didn't notice, he's talking to Catholics.

	14-10-2004 00:43									#59
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by using the institute of confession he does implicitely so.

and if an iman decides that voting for bush is a major sin and that if they do so, his followers can kiss their seventy virgins in the afterlife goodbye, it should also be okay then ?

he is just talking to moslims.

	14-10-2004 00:56									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Shouldn't these bishops be out protecting child-molester priests? GO **** YOURSELF BISHOPS... the church should not involve itself in politics...

Why not?