14-10-2004 20:00									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean Or is the American definiton of seperation of state and religion different than what I'm saying?

The is no definition of or even mention "separation of church and state" in the constituion. This is just an informal term, coined in the 1950s IIRC, to label the legal result of the interplay and balancing of two pharases in the first amendment: The 'non establishment clause' and 'free practice' of religion clause. niether of which bear upon the instant matter, except for the validity of a tax law requiring abstention from politics to have a certain tax status. If the constituion applies at all to the situation (which I do not believe it to) it would be to protect the right of a church (under 'free practice') to participate in political activity without tax disadvantage. Allowing church to be active in politic in no way offends the 'non establishment' clause. Much of what people percive about "speparation of church and state" in the USA is recent custom, rather than law. The biggest open question of "non establishment' I see currently applying to churches is special exmptions (such a tax) granted to religious activity, except that much of it would be moot, since similar exemptions commonly granted to non profit and charitable would apply to many of the same activities.

	14-10-2004 20:27									#92
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Catholic bishops have a right to their opinion.

Sure.

However, voicing political opinions in the public in the hopes of swaying people is a clear violation of State-Church Separation.

	14-10-2004 20:30									#93
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UR did you write that before or after Lefty's expose on myth of separation of church and state?

	14-10-2004 20:38									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger However, voicing political opinions in the public in the hopes of swaying people is a clear violation of State-Church Separation.

Absolutely wrong on a legal basis. The most it might be (with little real exposure) is violation of tax exempt status. The only real ecposures are political and looking unseemly (but that mostly to non-memebers of said church).

	14-10-2004 22:40									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Any Catholics sufficiently offended are more than welcome to our parish.

In one Simpsons episode, there was a sign in front of their church: "Welcome pissed-off catholics"

	15-10-2004 02:58									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean The church is different from any other organization regardless of its non-profit or whatever status. Religion has a different function in that it's about personal salvation in the afterlife as well as on earth. Therefore, it's completely different if a member of clergy of a religion brings religious sanction for or against a certain political choice, says this is evil or requires confession (therefore sin) to vote this way or another.

No, it's not different at all. The ONLY power a church in the US has is excommunication. That's IT. There's no coercion involved.

	15-10-2004 03:14									#97
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quote: Catholic Bishops: Voting for Kerry is a Sin requiring Confession

Stuff like this is why I could never be a Catholic. The Bible is written and I am perfectly capable of reading so why do I need some biased priest? Long live the Reformation!

	15-10-2004 03:42									#98
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Awww come on Oerdin, if you reject Catholicism you'd be missing out on all the paedophilia

	15-10-2004 05:15									#99
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At least the Church isn't doing what Unions are doing... shooting people

	15-10-2004 06:15									#100
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Point taken. I'm listening to the Rolling Stones at the moment so I feel a quote is in order for the indifferent...

"I watched with glee while your kings and queens fought for ten decades for the gods they made" -- Sympathy for the Devil

I'm done....

	15-10-2004 06:20									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Ming How is this different than a group like "labor" supporting Kerry... The church has legitimate reasons why they would like to see Bush get reelected. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way and command catholics to vote for Bush.

Because the Church is supposed to be a nonprofit organization. To be a nonprofit you have to agree to for go direct political activities; if the Catholic church wants to start paying taxes then it is welcome to start endorsing candidates. If it doesn't want to pay taxes then it needs to keep its collective mouth shut.

	15-10-2004 07:06									#102
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The church is entitled to put a view on political issues and Bishops have a lot of autonomy to do that.

But this does not mean ordinary catholics pay much attention. It's not a block vote. They make up their own mind.

Probably the most underground church group would be pro-choice catholics, of which I suspect there are many in spite of what the clergy says. Just as the teachings on birth control are almost completely ignored.

Ironically I think catholic parents would be the most pro choice group. We know about the reality of reproduction and fertility.

	15-10-2004 07:25									#103
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Sure, they can put their views forward but then they've broken the deal. They want to talk then they pay taxes just like everyone else. The deal is they stick to saving souls and the government declares them a nonprofit worthly of tax free status for the good work they do. All of the other religions are able to follow this rule why should Catholics get special favors?

They can play politics or they can be a nonpolitical tax free nonprofit. Which is it?

	15-10-2004 07:27									#104
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quote: Unless it's teachers trying to get children to influence their parents.

Yeah, we get enough of that from advertisers...oops, sorry Ming.

	15-10-2004 07:32									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin They can play politics or they can be a nonpolitical tax free nonprofit. Which is it?

Does the catholic church get tax breaks in the USA that other churches don't get?

	15-10-2004 07:46									#106
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quote: All of the other religions are able to follow this rule why should Catholics get special favors?

That's more an issue of how the Church's organizations are set up. Most protestant sects are congregational and don't have the hierarchy the way Catholics do. I don't know really know the structure of Muslim and other Religions but I'd guess it's pretty congregational. It's the stance of a few bishops right? If an Anglican Bishop were to say the same no one would notice.

	15-10-2004 08:10									#107
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same with a catholic bishop

	15-10-2004 08:28									#108
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quote: All of the other religions are able to follow this rule why should Catholics get special favors?

You must be willfully ignoring what many other religions do in the United States. The RC church does very little politicking in comparison.

	15-10-2004 08:35									#109
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yeah I don't see what the RC do as much different to any other church.

One difference perhaps is RC people and clergy are right across the full political spectrum of views from left to right, Democrat to Republican.

	15-10-2004 08:37									#110
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quote: But this does not mean ordinary catholics pay much attention. It's not a block vote. They make up their own mind.

It's not a monolithic bloc of voters at all, however there is a minority bloc of catholic voters who place the issue very prominently in their voting decision. Remember that the US has some of the most permissive abortion laws in the western world. This fact winds these catholics up and has moved them from the Democratic party -- where by all rights they belong -- to the Republicans, where there is an informal social coalition with your hard-core protestants.

Pretty amazing. Almost my entire family has been moved from the Democratic Party to the Republican Party in about 10 years (between ~ 1980 and 1990). This after being a solidly Democratic family for the preceding 140 years. This was the biggest wedge issue for them. Pennsylvania and Ohio could be decided by the issue in this election.

	15-10-2004 09:09									#111
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quote: And, also, Abortion has killed many, many more people (about 42 mil), much more then the Iraq war has.

And Shi speaks for me.

Any Evangelical, or Protestant sufficiently attracted to this position taken by the Catholic church should join the church.

	15-10-2004 09:11									#112
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quote: Anabaptist?

Mennonites are anabaptists, Mr. fun.

	15-10-2004 09:13									#113
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's not a monolithic bloc of voters at all, however there is a minority bloc of catholic voters who place the issue very prominently in their voting decision.

I'm sure that's true Dan, it's not entirely without effect on voting intentions.

To link voting intention to confession is pretty eccentric these days.

	15-10-2004 09:15									#114
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quote: I'm by no means an expert on Catholisicm but wrt capital punishment, I beleive the Church's position gets a bit fuzzy for certain circumstances. By and large opposed to it but not without wiggle room. Definitely not the case tho' wrt abortion. Can anyone (Ben Kenobi?) dig up the articles of faith describing church positions on the two matters.

Good question.

WRT to abortion, Shi has said everything that I have. Abortion is the deliberate killing of an innocent human person, and is a mortal sin just like murder.

As for the death penalty, that is a good question.

	15-10-2004 09:19									#115
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quote: Canon law has always forbidden clerics to shed human blood and therefore capital punishment has always been the work of the officials of the State and not of the Church. Even in the case of heresy, of which so much is made by non-Catholic controversialists, the functions of ecclesiastics were restricted invariably to ascertaining the fact of heresy. The punishment, whether capital or other, was both prescribed and inflicted by civil government. The infliction of capital punishment is not contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church, and the power of the State to visit upon culprits the penalty of death derives much authority from revelation and from the writings of theologians. The advisabilty of exercising that power is, of course, an affair to be determined upon other and various considerations.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12565a.htm

	15-10-2004 09:21									#116
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quote: Shi, you can't both appeal to the Cathechism in support of the Church's position on the death penalty, and then reject the Cathechism when it turns out you were wrong about it. If being a Catholic means anything, it means this: Church teachings are all, and your opinions don't mean diddly. You can accept that logic or you can reject the Church, but don't pretend you can do both.

That's completely and totally incorrect. The idea that on no matter what the issue we automatically go by whatever the Pope says is an incorrect stereotypical over-simplified view over what is a very complex theology that Catholicism has.

The Church has authority to teach on matters of faith and morals. So, say a bishop says two things: "Jesus was assumed into heaven" and "The Pittsburgh Steelers are going all the way this year" The first one is a matter of faith and so we accept it. The second statement is not and so we need not accept it.

So When the Church teaches:

quote: Perserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this Reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the Death Penalty. For analogous reasons those holding authority should have the right to repel by armed forces agressor against the community in their charge

CCC 2266

Now this a statement of faith and morals, that is within the rights of the State to use capital punishment. Now the bishops of the Church claim that in todays world such cases in the West where it would be needed are very rare indeed, and that because the Church teaches bloodless means are to be prefered, we should not use the death penalty. But the statement that there aren't many cases today when it is applicable as needed to render the agressor unable to inflict harm is an opinion about criminology, not a matter of faith. Whether any particular case meets the criteria is within the legitimate discretion of the State to decide. One could, for instance, argue that with the high rate of violence in prisons today that we might need to use the DP against a particularly violent and dangerous criminal.

Capital Punishment and War are issues for which Bush may be accountable, but your view that his actions go well beyond any wiggle room is a subjective opinion, as opposed to an objective truth such as Abortion being intrinsically a grave evil. And, for that matter, Kerry Supports Both. He supports the DP against terrorists. As for the war, he had advocated taking action to remove Saddam many times throughout his career, voted to send the country to war, applauded the President when he started the war, and plans to continue the war.

	15-10-2004 09:23									#117
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w00t!

Tag team.

	15-10-2004 09:30									#118
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quote: But Catholics who vote for that politician on other grounds should not be penalized, the Ratzinger letter adds.(emphasis added)

So in other words, a Catholic should be permitted to vote for a candidate who is prochoice, so long as they can find another cause that balances it out.

To this, I give you a quote:


"How do we balance out the murder of more than one million babies each year with any good or series of goods?"

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/aug/04082302.html

quote: All that said, the invation of Iraq is ample moral and political reason to vote against George W. Bush, which I fully intend to do.

Why should the blood of thousands who volunteered to fight in Iraq take precedence over the blood of millions of innocents killed through abortion?

	15-10-2004 10:00									#119
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quote: So in other words, a Catholic should be permitted to vote for a candidate who is prochoice, so long as they can find another cause that balances it out.

It means that you won't be penalized for voting for a prochoice candidate. It doesn't mean it's a good idea to vote for one.

	15-10-2004 10:08									#120
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You and Ben remind of me when I was young, lol.