13-10-2004 19:49									#1
	Catholic Bishops: Voting for Kerry is a Sin requiring Confession Support Apolyton

Excerpts from a New York Times article:

quote: Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry For Archbishop Charles J. Chaput, the highest-ranking Roman Catholic prelate in Colorado, there is only one way for a faithful Catholic to vote in this presidential election, for President Bush and against Senator John Kerry. (...) He stopped short of telling them whom to vote for, but he reminded them of Mr. Kerry's support for abortion rights. And he pointed out the potential impact his re-election could have on Roe v. Wade. "Supreme Court cases can be overturned, right?" he asked. Archbishop Chaput, who has never explicitly endorsed a candidate, is part of a group of bishops intent on throwing the weight of the church into the elections. (...) Archbishop Chaput has discussed Catholic priorities in the election in 14 of his 28 columns in the free diocesan newspaper this year. His archdiocese has organized voter registration drives in more than 40 of the largest parishes in the state and sent voter guides to churches around the state. Many have committees to help turn out voters and are distributing applications for absentee ballots. (...) In an interview in his residence here, Archbishop Chaput said a vote for a candidate like Mr. Kerry who supports abortion rights or embryonic stem cell research would be a sin that must be confessed before receiving Communion. "If you vote this way, are you cooperating in evil?" he asked. "And if you know you are cooperating in evil, should you go to confession? The answer is yes." (...) But never before have so many bishops so explicitly warned Catholics so close to an election that to vote a certain way was to commit a sin. (...) The [Republican] party has recruited an undisclosed number of Catholic field coordinators who earn $2,500 a month, along with up to $500 a month for expenses to increase conservative Catholic turnout. (...) The Rev. Andrew Kemberling, pastor of St. Thomas More Church near here, said he agreed with the archbishop, but he acknowledged that parishioners sometimes accused him of telling them how to vote. He said his reply was: "We are not telling them how to vote. We are telling them how to take Communion in good conscience."

He "stopped short of telling them whom to vote for", instead merely reminding them they would be cooperating in evil if they committed the sin of voting for Kerry.

Lucky he stopped short!

	13-10-2004 19:54									#2
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Interesting, so voting for a candidate who would accept the termination of unborn life gets you two 'Our Fathers' and a 'Holy Mary'. What does voting for a candidate who goes to war on false pretences get you?

	13-10-2004 19:56									#3
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If they believe that Kerry the politician's prospective policies would encourage abortion, and they believe that abortion is unethical, they are required by their teaching duties to speak up about it.

Not speaking up about it, especially when a catholic politician is involved, makes it appear as though the church is neutral on this issue at best and supportive at worst. They believe that abortion is a big deal. A mortal sin.

That said, the church has said its piece. The voters can take from it what they wish.

	13-10-2004 19:59									#5
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How is this different than a group like "labor" supporting Kerry... The church has legitimate reasons why they would like to see Bush get reelected. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way and command catholics to vote for Bush.

	13-10-2004 20:01									#6
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Here we whip our clergy into order for crossing the church-state line like that.

	13-10-2004 20:02									#7
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He's the one that left himself open to this.

	13-10-2004 20:04									#8
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Maybe the Bishop should start speaking out about the condition of his flock in the state, specially the devout hispanics, and the conditions they face in the agrobusiness as well.

	13-10-2004 20:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin What does voting for a candidate who goes to war on false pretences get you?

Since it's against unbelievers, there's nothing wrong with the war. Crusades

	13-10-2004 20:13									#10
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Yes, he should talk about the hispanics, and about ways to send them back to Mexico.

	13-10-2004 20:16									#11
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The thread title is misleading: This is only one Bishop out in Colorado, not every Catholic Bishop.

While Chaput is at least making an effort to explain the importance of supporting pro-life Catholics, I don't think it's right that it's nessecarily a mortal sin to vote for Kerry, and he is the only Bishop to make such a claim. It would be a mortal sin to support Kerry BECAUSE he is pro-abortion, but not nessecarily if you voted for him in spite of his pro-abortion stance.

quote: Interesting, so voting for a candidate who would accept the termination of unborn life gets you two 'Our Fathers' and a 'Holy Mary'. What does voting for a candidate who goes to war on false pretences get you?

In Catholic teaching, that's not the same issue. The Church teaches going to war may sometimes be acceptable under St. Augustine's "Just War" doctrine. Catholics get to decide if any particular case meets the criteria. The Church has offered the interpetation that Iraq War II did not fufill the criteria, but that is a view on the facts of the case, not a view on faith or morals, and so Catholics are allowed to disagree on that.

Abortion is a more fundamental matter. Abortion involves the direct intended killing of an innocent life and so therefore is never considered to be acceptable or allowable, and is always considered immoral.

So, with regard to the war- Bush may or may not have acted immoraly in taking us to war, depending on whether he felt the case had some certain criteria. It is absolutely wrong for Kerry to support Abortion. And, also, Abortion has killed many, many more people (about 42 mil), much more then the Iraq war has.

	13-10-2004 20:29									#12
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Isn't a church's tax-exemption status dependent on their being politically neutral? If so, would this be a violation and could you start taxing some these churches in Colorado?

	13-10-2004 20:45									#13
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What I can't understand is why the Catholic Church in America is so vocal in condemning Kerry's pro-abortion stance, yet seems to ignore the pro-death penalty attitudes of Bush and co. They're both murder after all - what's the difference?

	13-10-2004 20:46									#14
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quote: Isn't a church's tax-exemption status dependent on their being politically neutral?

No.

	13-10-2004 20:53									#15
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Trying to understand inconsistancies in Catholic Doctrine and how it affects their world view is not for the weak of heart.

I have no problem with any organization expressing their opinion on the election. Unless it's teachers trying to get children to influence their parents.

	13-10-2004 20:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by our_man What I can't understand is why the Catholic Church in America is so vocal in condemning Kerry's pro-abortion stance, yet seems to ignore the pro-death penalty attitudes of Bush and co. They're both murder after all - what's the difference?

Check your cathecism. The Death Penalty is much the same as war in Catholic teaching. It's something the Bishops have given an interpretation of fact that no cases today meet the criteria for it, but like war it's still something the State has a right to do, unlike Abortion which is never acceptable and the state must forbid consistent with it's duty to protect innocents.

	13-10-2004 20:57									#17
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searching the web for something on the subject I came up with this

quote: From the founding of the country until 1954, churches and other nonprofit organizations were permitted to expressly endorse or oppose candidates for political office. That changed when Lyndon Baines Johnson ran for United States Senate. He was opposed by a nonprofit organization (not a church), and after he won the election, he proposed legislation to amend the Internal Revenue Code to prohibit nonprofit organizations, including churches, from endorsing or opposing political candidates. The Code was amended in 1954 without any debate regarding the impact of the bill. The Internal Revenue Code now expressly prohibits churches and other nonprofit organizations from directly endorsing or opposing political candidates. From 1954 to the present, only one church has ever lost its IRS tax-exempt letter ruling, but even that church did not lose its tax-exempt status for opposing then-Governor Bill Clinton for President in 1992.

which was found at the webpage below
http://www.lc.org/Resources/pastors...es_politics.htm

It looks like for the most part the IRS doesn't really enforce the rule, but if a church pushes it too far they can lose their tax-exempt status.

	13-10-2004 21:02									#18
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Maybe some Bishops secretly hope that
through Bush they could gain more Influence on the Government

	13-10-2004 21:06									#19
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Bad as this is I can't see any politician commiting political suicide by going to war against the catholic church.

	13-10-2004 21:10									#20
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In the US, it wouldn't be a smart political move. However, I doubt Kerry loses much, if anything, by having his stance on abortion and being catholic. (He loses by his stance on abortion and by being catholic, but it would be best to treat the issues separately.)

	13-10-2004 21:13									#21
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Yes, he should talk about the hispanics, and about ways to send them back to Mexico.

Seems a bit harsh on all those born in the U.S.A. , or from Guatemala, or Honduras, or Belize.....

Still, good to see such a caring, Christian attitude from you. You aren't by any chance of Samaritan descent, are you?

	13-10-2004 21:15									#22
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Something to bear in mind is that not all Catholics are even going to listen to this guy. In fact, if the Catholic Church in general endorsed Bush, they might lose a lot of support from their flock.

Take Austria for example, they have an extremely high percentage of Catholics (over 80%, I believe), yet the vast majority of people are pro-choice. They simply take everything the Vatican says with a grain of salt now.

-Drachasor

	13-10-2004 21:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Yes, he should talk about the hispanics, and about ways to send them back to Mexico.

Or talk about the white man and how to send them back to Europe.

	13-10-2004 21:52									#24
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Or talk about the white man and how to send them back to Europe.

quote: They simply take everything the Vatican says with a grain of salt now.

Except for the south mediterean country's, I think the pope has very little influence, if any at all.

	13-10-2004 21:57									#25
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FU Religionistas!

-Arrian

	13-10-2004 22:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Interesting, so voting for a candidate who would accept the termination of unborn life gets you two 'Our Fathers' and a 'Holy Mary'. What does voting for a candidate who goes to war on false pretences get you?

I dunno, but I know the Catholic Church was against Iraq and doesn't like Bush.

	13-10-2004 22:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ming How is this different than a group like "labor" supporting Kerry... The church has legitimate reasons why they would like to see Bush get reelected. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way and command catholics to vote for Bush.

Except for the whole thing about not supporting Bush?

Abortion is pretty much the only issue where Bush and the Church coincide.

	13-10-2004 22:24									#28
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i dont know about confession and all that, not being RC, but i think i'll be in need of a cleansing ritual of some kind after leaving the voting booth, whichever way I vote.

	13-10-2004 22:28									#29
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You can always do a write in.

	13-10-2004 22:29									#30
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Catholic bishops have a right to their opinion.