14-10-2004 01:17									#61
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I have no problem with bishops stating their opinions whatever they be based upon. Looking at Reverand Paisley I do shudder though.

In this case I do think it bad form to threaten the congregation by throwing out the sacrament of confession, especially considering that voting for either candidate entails abetting sinful acts.

	14-10-2004 01:19									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi So, with regard to the war- Bush may or may not have acted immoraly in taking us to war, depending on whether he felt the case had some certain criteria. It is absolutely wrong for Kerry to support Abortion. And, also, Abortion has killed many, many more people (about 42 mil), much more then the Iraq war has.

Condoms have killed trillions by such logic.

Also, is Kerry being blamed for these 42 million abortions?

	14-10-2004 02:32									#63
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The idea of threatening churches with removal of their tax exempt status for supporting a certain candidate has been brought up. It hasn't gotten very far though.

Both parties benefit from pulpit campaigning. Black clergy will often campaign for Democratic candidates and Southern Clergy for republican candidates. The catholic church is new.

	14-10-2004 04:22									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Thucydides Isn't a church's tax-exemption status dependent on their being politically neutral? If so, would this be a violation and could you start taxing some these churches in Colorado?

Congressional leaders of all stripes have been telling the IRS for 50 years that aggressively pursuing said rules against church organizations is out of bounds, and that doing so would only result in a change in the law, and punitive legislation against the IRS. This tradition was establihed back before roe vs wade when democrats controlled congress, and the large majority of church political activisim was leftist and about socialism and pacifism. Now they reap what they have sown. I remember some early challenges on this subject re Catholic churches in my are esposing a version of 'liberation theology' going down in flames after being stonewalled at the IRS.

	14-10-2004 04:30									#65
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis by using the institute of confession he does implicitely so.

Does implicitly what? Coerce people?

The ONLY power ANY religious organization in the US has is excommunication.

[]qand if an iman decides that voting for bush is a major sin and that if they do so, his followers can kiss their seventy virgins in the afterlife goodbye, it should also be okay then ?

he is just talking to moslims. [/q]

It should be OK no matter what. Hey, it may be a sin in their religion.

	14-10-2004 07:39									#66
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quote: Originally posted by rah While not a big fan also, organization have as much right as individuals to participate in the political process. Anything less would be undemocratic.

I know -- it's something we just have to deal with, but that does not preclude our right to express our disdain for it.

	14-10-2004 08:16									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Ming How is this different than a group like "labor" supporting Kerry... The church has legitimate reasons why they would like to see Bush get reelected. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way and command catholics to vote for Bush.

Well the Catholic Church hasn't been going in and roughing up Kerry supporters and shooting up their various state headquarters for one.

	14-10-2004 10:11									#68
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I don't know how it works on the US but whenever a Member of the clergy tells me to vote one way I generally take that as a sure sign from God to vote the other way.

	14-10-2004 10:17									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I don't know how it works on the US but whenever a Member of the clergy tells me to vote one way I generally take that as a sure sign from God to vote the other way.

amen

	14-10-2004 10:28									#70
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dannubis

quote: Originally posted by Ming How is this different than a group like "labor" supporting Kerry... The church has legitimate reasons why they would like to see Bush get reelected. I'm surprised they didn't go all the way and command catholics to vote for Bush.

quote: Originally posted by rah While not a big fan also, organization have as much right as individuals to participate in the political process.

The church is different from any other organization regardless of its non-profit or whatever status. Religion has a different function in that it's about personal salvation in the afterlife as well as on earth. Therefore, it's completely different if a member of clergy of a religion brings religious sanction for or against a certain political choice, says this is evil or requires confession (therefore sin) to vote this way or another.

This is different from a labour group saying you should vote for Kerry. If the union member doesn't vote for him, what happens? Nobody even knows he went against the union, whereas according to this bishop, if a Catholic votes for Kerry, God will know it and it's a sin and you need to confess. This has much more powerful implication, and goes beyond the point of individual rights of bishops to participate in the political process and becomes the church participating in the process.

Besides, if we consider this following approach;

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No, he isn't - he's using it properly, in fact! Seperation of church and state means the government does not support any particular religion, not that the government is not supported by any religions. If people aren't allowed to vote based on what they believe, what the hell SHOULD the vote based on?

that's only half of the definition of church and state. The other half is church stays out of politics. Or is the American definiton of seperation of state and religion different than what I'm saying?

	14-10-2004 13:21									#71
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That Bishop sounds a bit dotty.

	14-10-2004 15:33									#72
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I'm coming in on page 3, so I'm sure this has been said...but it bears repeating:

1) The Catholic Church is unwaivering in its opposition to abortion AND its opposition to the death penalty (a consistency I've always admired).

2) Bush has signed more death warrants than any American politician in history, and is a fervent supporter of capital punishment.

3) So, saying this about Kerry but not Bush, and then going on to say it's theology and not politics, if bullsh*t of the highest possible order.

Catholicism instilled in me a spiritualism I continue to cherish. But I've really lost all respect for that f*cking Church.

	14-10-2004 17:11									#73
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I'm by no means an expert on Catholisicm but wrt capital punishment, I beleive the Church's position gets a bit fuzzy for certain circumstances. By and large opposed to it but not without wiggle room.

Definitely not the case tho' wrt abortion.

Can anyone (Ben Kenobi?) dig up the articles of faith describing church positions on the two matters.

	14-10-2004 17:34									#74
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Any Catholics sufficiently offended are more than welcome to our parish.

	14-10-2004 18:21									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Any Catholics sufficiently offended are more than welcome to our parish.

Episcopalian right? Yeah, my sister the Unitarian makes me that offer, too. They're both pretty tempting...

	14-10-2004 18:26									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Any Catholics sufficiently offended are more than welcome to our parish.

Anabaptist?

	14-10-2004 18:31									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ancyrean dannubis that's only half of the definition of church and state. The other half is church stays out of politics. Or is the American definiton of seperation of state and religion different than what I'm saying?

as far as our constitution, yes it is different. The US con says the "congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" IE it restricts the govt, it does NOT restrict religious organizations.

How we as individuals feel about religious groups making political statements is something else again, but thats our own individual views on the proper role of religious groups, not law.

	14-10-2004 18:33									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe I'm by no means an expert on Catholisicm but wrt capital punishment, I beleive the Church's position gets a bit fuzzy for certain circumstances. By and large opposed to it but not without wiggle room. Definitely not the case tho' wrt abortion. Can anyone (Ben Kenobi?) dig up the articles of faith describing church positions on the two matters.

This site provides a pretty nice summary:

http://www.americancatholic.org/New...lty/default.asp

There's very little "wiggle room." Given that the Church actually objected to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, they should be regarding the Governor of Texas -- any Governor of Texas -- as the moral equivalent of Hitler and Pol Pot. I await the Church's acknowledgement of that.

	14-10-2004 18:36									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly This site provides a pretty nice summary: http://www.americancatholic.org/New...lty/default.asp There's very little "wiggle room." Given that the Church actually objected to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, they should be regarding the Governor of Texas -- any Governor of Texas -- as the moral equivalent of Hitler and Pol Pot. I await the Church's acknowledgement of that.

good point

	14-10-2004 18:38									#80
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Rufus, if you check out your Cathecism, the Death Penatly is clearly not forbidden under the Church's teachings on faith and morals. And even it was, the people lost to the Death Penalty isn't nearly so large as the people lost to abortion

	14-10-2004 18:39									#81
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quote: as the moral equivalent of Hitler and Pol Pot

Now you're being ridiculous.

	14-10-2004 18:45									#82
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Now you're being ridiculous.

No, I'm being strictly accurate. If you regard it as a sin for the state to put people to death, for whatever reason, then there is no moral difference between Hitler, Pol Pot, and a Texas governor. A difference in the number of times a sin is committed does not create a moral difference between the sins themselves.

	14-10-2004 18:45									#83
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quote: Rufus, if you check out your Cathecism, the Death Penatly is clearly not forbidden under the Church's teachings on faith and morals.

Under our current system in the US (where alternatives exist), the death penalty is unjustifiable under the church teachings. This seems crystal clear to me.

	14-10-2004 18:52									#84
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quote: No, I'm being strictly accurate.

It's a silly argument. You know and I know that Pol Pot was a vastly more evil character than a Texas governor who puts to death some 500 murderers (or whatever). It is self evident.

	14-10-2004 18:53									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Under our current system in the US (where alternatives exist), the death penalty is unjustifiable under the church teachings.

You know, I never really bought the "Alternatives Exist Nowadays" argument. Even back in the Middle Ages, you could always keep them chained to the wall to give them Life in Prison.

But in any case, where the Church has Authority to teach is on matters of Faith and Morals. It can say under which circumstances the Death Penalty is an acceptable option as a matter of Faith and Morals. But whether any specific case meets the criteria is a question of the facts which you are free to disagree with. Even if you strongly view that the circumstances as not allowing death penalty in this country, it is still not the same issue as Abortion is universally wrong, where as the DP may or may not be wrong depending on the circumstances.

But even if you are a purist on the issue of the DP, Kerry has said he believes in the DP for terrorists.

	14-10-2004 18:55									#86
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quote: Originally posted by DanS It's a silly argument. You know and I know that Pol Pot was a vastly more evil character than a Texas governor who puts to death some 500 murderers (or whatever). It is self evident.

I agree with you. But I'm arguing that, within the logic of the Church's opposition to the death penalty, there can be no theologically valid distinction between one head of state who presides over state-sponsored executions and another who does the same thing -- even if the processes by which they legitimate such executions are very different. Hey, it's their logic, not mine.

	14-10-2004 19:05									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi You know, I never really bought the "Alternatives Exist Nowadays" argument. Even back in the Middle Ages, you could always keep them chained to the wall to give them Life in Prison.

Shi, you can't both appeal to the Cathechism in support of the Church's position on the death penalty, and then reject the Cathechism when it turns out you were wrong about it. If being a Catholic means anything, it means this: Church teachings are all, and your opinions don't mean diddly. You can accept that logic or you can reject the Church, but don't pretend you can do both.

quote: But even if you are a purist on the issue of the DP, Kerry has said he believes in the DP for terrorists.

Nobody ever said Kerry was a good Catholic. But Bush's stance on the death penalty exists well beyond the bounds of the Church's "wiggle room"; for that matter, his war in Iraq was condemned by the Pope. Yet the bishops are strangely silent about both these matters.

	14-10-2004 19:16									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly This site provides a pretty nice summary: http://www.americancatholic.org/New...lty/default.asp There's very little "wiggle room." Given that the Church actually objected to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, they should be regarding the Governor of Texas -- any Governor of Texas -- as the moral equivalent of Hitler and Pol Pot. I await the Church's acknowledgement of that.

Actually the first sentence of the site interests me more than the examples of opposing capital punishment.

"The Catholic Church opposes the death penalty in nearly all cases, and Pope John Paul II often speaks out against capital punishment."

In what cases do they think capital punishment acceptable?

	14-10-2004 19:23									#89
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The official church position appears to be a bit different than what this bishop is expressing.

quote: The letter's last paragraph also takes on Catholics who vote for candidates because of their pro-choice stance. "If he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia," that Catholic too "would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion," it reads. That statement supports Colorado Springs Bishop Michael Sheridan, who on May 1 sent out a letter to his diocese saying Catholics who vote for candidates who support abortion, stem-cell research or euthanasia also should not take Communion. But Catholics who vote for that politician on other grounds should not be penalized, the Ratzinger letter adds.(emphasis added)

Note: Cardinal Ratzinger is the Vatican's doctrinal chief of police.

Rufus:
I don't think Catholic doctrine is nearly as rigid as you make it out to be. Any parish priest would consider both scale and intent when hearing a confession. Moreover, as I understand Vatican II, church teaching is not the sole, dogmatic province of the clergy, but is to be informed by the experience of the laity in daily life.

All that said, the invation of Iraq is ample moral and political reason to vote against George W. Bush, which I fully intend to do.

	14-10-2004 19:43									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly Given that the Church actually objected to the execution of Timothy McVeigh, they should be regarding the Governor of Texas -- any Governor of Texas -- as the moral equivalent of Hitler and Pol Pot. I await the Church's acknowledgement of that.

twit. The governor of Texas has almost no power over executions, it is almost all (after the courts) in the board of pardons and paroles (much of the executive power of Texas is distributed to idependant boards/commisions [some elected, some appointed for staggered terms] and elected officials other than the governor) The only clemmency the Governor can exercise on his own is 1 temporary 30 day stay per death row prisoner. Other than that he can not act except with recomendation by the board. You should should to to have some minimum knowledge about a subject before making such a grand pronoucement. The governors office in texas actually does very little of the executive administration of the state. Its few powers are mostly political rather than adminstrative in nature: appointments, vetos, calling special legislative sessions, submitting legislation.