15-10-2004 09:59									#31
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quote: Poor Wal-Mart, it will have to pay for expensive lawyers to prove that their store wasn't shut down because of the union.

I would rather have the workers have their jobs, union or not. I'm not for them closing down their stores because of unionization.

Rather, if they're able to play as hardball as the union is able, then a virtuous MAD balance of power situation develops. This is good for everyone.

	15-10-2004 10:01									#32
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Unions are nothing but a mob mentality endorsed by the government.

I don't care if people form them, I care if they force me to join and force me to pay union dues. My first real job as a union job. It's true my starting pay was higher than most of my friends' in similar jobs, but after the dues were deducted I was making less.

And where did my dues go? To the stupid ****ing left-wing propaganda they mailed MONTHLY to me even though I asked them to stop.

They'd also put out a biannual "newsletter", which was ALWAYS the same "we're going to strike unless they pay us more! In other news, dues are increasing..."

Losers

	15-10-2004 10:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I would rather have the workers have their jobs, union or not. I'm not for them closing down their stores because of unionization. Rather, if they're able to play as hardball as the union is able, then a virtuous MAD balance of power situation develops. This is good for everyone.

Well this union is weak and powerless. There's no MAD in this case.

	15-10-2004 10:21									#34
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quote: That doesn't impact your being hired. It just means that you automatically become part of the union.

That is an infringement on the freedom of association of both employer and employee. If I don't want to join the union and I can't work as a result, the union is deciding if I can work, not me and the employer. So unions do exert some control over who gets hired...

quote: Scabbing should be outlawed. In any event, the unions can't stop employers from hiring scabs, except in civilized countries like Canada.

So why do you argue unions don't control who can get hired?

	15-10-2004 10:21									#35
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That's the union's fault.

xpost

	15-10-2004 10:27									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's the union's fault. xpost

There was never any MAD before the union, and there won't be any after. How can that be their fault?

	15-10-2004 10:30									#37
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quote: Unions are nothing but a mob mentality endorsed by the government.

Democracy.

	15-10-2004 10:32									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker That is an infringement on the freedom of association of both employer and employee. If I don't want to join the union and I can't work as a result.

The employer agreed to it in a contract. If you don't want to join the union, then it's your choice not to take the job. They don't tell the employer not to hire you.

And you wonder why people think libertarianism would lead to an absolute tyrrany of the rich when you post anti-working class opinions like this.

	15-10-2004 10:32									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Asher I don't care if people form them, I care if they force me to join and force me to pay union dues. My first real job as a union job. It's true my starting pay was higher than most of my friends' in similar jobs, but after the dues were deducted I was making less.

You probably also had better benefits and better job security.

	15-10-2004 10:33									#40
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quote: That is an infringement on the freedom of association of both employer and employee. If I don't want to join the union and I can't work as a result, the union is deciding if I can work, not me and the employer.

Eh? Union shop agreements are freely agreed upon between the employees and the management, not dictated by the state. How, exactly, are they an "infringement on the freedom of association?"

	15-10-2004 10:34									#41
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Yeah, Berz, che is right about one thing: unions certainly are allowed under libertarianism. I have no problem wiht unions existing.

The conflict occurs when unions are given special legal privileges.

	15-10-2004 10:36									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Unions Wal Mart Ted Striker

	15-10-2004 10:36									#43
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Unions are pretty much castrated in our legal system. Look up Taft-Hartley.

	15-10-2004 10:44									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The conflict occurs when unions are given special legal privileges.

What about the legal privileges granted to enterprises?

	15-10-2004 10:45									#45
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Is it wrong for me to hate the people who come through my check out more than Wal-Mart?

	15-10-2004 10:46									#46
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The employer agreed to it in a contract. If you don't want to join the union, then it's your choice not to take the job. They don't tell the employer not to hire you.

Talk about returning a libertarian style argument against a libertarian.

	15-10-2004 10:50									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris What about the legal privileges granted to enterprises?

Such as...?

	15-10-2004 10:50									#48
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You probably also had better benefits and better job security.

I had some crap dental care I didn't need (I had 100% coverage already), and that was it.

As for job security -- what the hell kind of joke is that. I did my job and I did it well, that's why I kept my job. If you wanna keep your job, do a good job at it.

	15-10-2004 10:51									#49
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quote: Such as...?

Legal protection from secondary boycotts.

	15-10-2004 10:55									#50
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As I said, look up Taft-Hartley.

	15-10-2004 11:00									#51
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quote: Union shop agreements are freely agreed upon between the employees and the management, not dictated by the state.

That's a mischaracterization of reality, when you also face the fact that employers aren't allowed - in yours and Che's fantasy and unfortunately in some realities - to crush unions, by closing stores, firing employees for starting unions, etc. There IS government interference, otherwise why in the hell would most companies agree to the presence of unions?

If the contract between unions and employers aren't directly coerced by the government, the fact that the employer has to tolerate the presence of a union IS in many cases coerced by the government.

In any case, I have no problems with the existence of unions, as long as there are no laws preventing employers from banning unions, or firing employees for unionizing, or closing stores that bring in unions. That way, EVERYONE's freedom is protected - employees are free to organize, and employers are free to pick and choose who to hire and fire. Can't get much more fair than that.

	15-10-2004 11:25									#52
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Good old Floyd, protecting evveryone's right to starve or agree to be a slave.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 15-10-2004 at 11:32

	15-10-2004 11:27									#53
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That's odd, I'm not in a union, and I'm doing fine. Interestingly enough, I get by through my own hard work and merit, rather than relying on government rules and regulations and bullshit.

	15-10-2004 11:32									#54
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quote: There IS government interference, otherwise why in the hell would most companies agree to the presence of unions?

Ever hear of strikes?

quote: the fact that the employer has to tolerate the presence of a union IS in many cases coerced by the government.

Yes, the poor widdle employers are being coerced into these agreements by the state, when the state prohibits employees from creating closed shops - and union shops as well in right to work states, conducting jurisdictional strikes, secondary boycotts, and the state can slap down an injunction on them whenever they get antsy and decide to strike.

	15-10-2004 11:32									#55
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So because it's true for you, it must be true for everyone. Good logic there. I guess everyone has a headache because I have one.

Last edited by chegitz guevara on 15-10-2004 at 11:41

	15-10-2004 11:34									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Such as...?

I consider the quasi-unlimited right they get to public property and means of production a privilege, and also the continual diminution of their taxes (which are then passed to individuals) as privileges.

Ramo also mentioned something that I don't know of. Perhaps he could resume it?

	15-10-2004 11:36									#57
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quote: I consider the quasi-unlimited right they get to public property and means of production a privilege, and also the continual diminution of their taxes (which are then passed to individuals) as privileges.

Everyone has an equal right to "public property" and "means of production". The fact that pretty much anything with means of production is, by definition, a business, doesn't make it a "privelege".

	15-10-2004 11:40									#58
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quote: Ever hear of strikes?

Ever hear of, as you call them, scabs? Ever hear of unemployment? Because I guarantee you, when there is unemployment, workers who go on strike CAN be replaced.

quote: Yes, the poor widdle employers are being coerced into these agreements by the state, when the state prohibits employees from creating closed shops - and union shops as well in right to work states, conducting jurisdictional strikes, secondary boycotts, and the state can slap down an injunction on them whenever they get antsy and decide to strike.

What's your point? Regardless of state laws about unions, I only support the existence of unions in the absence of laws prevented employers from acting - non violently - against unions.

che,

quote: So bevcause it's true for you, it must be true for everyone.

Not necessarily, no, but hard work and a strong work ethic will take you a lot farther, in general, than a union will.

	15-10-2004 11:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd che, Not necessarily, no, but hard work and a strong work ethic will take you a lot farther, in general, than a union will.

Nyet. The reason this country has a halfway decent standard of living for most people is because of unions. Unions gave us a minimum wage, social security, health care, and a lot of other nice stuff that countries which don't have legal unions don't have. Unions may be down today (which is why so many of the rights we won are under attack), but without unions, we'd all be a lot worse off today.

	15-10-2004 11:51									#60
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Minimum wages lead in part to unemployment, and artificially interfere with the free market.

Social Security is not sustainable, and quite frankly, there's no good reason I should be forced to save in a government account for my own retirement when I could get a better return privately. The only way around that is to either say that the government should be my nanny and force me to save, or that I'm not actually putting money away for my own retirement, but rather paying for that of others (which is part of the reason SS is currently unsustainable). As for socialized health care, I've said before and will continue to say that the US private health care system is near the top in terms of GP care, and AT the top in terms of surgery, teaching, R&D, and specialized medicine.