16-10-2004 20:44									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Freedom gained one way is freedom deprived the other. Social safety nets require taxation, so that money the employer is saving on salaries would be paid in taxes for wealth redistribution.

False assumption. With no minimum wage, employment would expand to include jobs below the minimum wage.

As to taxes: that depends solely on whether there are profits, not on the amount of money paid for individual jobs. It is not automatic that profits go up as wages go down, as what happens is that prices go down as well in order to meet the competion who also have lower wage rates.

	16-10-2004 20:47									#122
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Che, the question is why should their be a minimum wage if the basic needs of a family are taken care of by society? (The minimum wage was born decades before the Great Society and is an anachronism.)

	16-10-2004 20:47									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ned No doubt that this can be a problem. There is still Catholic Charities to fall back on.

You ever rely upon Catholic Charities? I have. Woo! They pay for ONE electric bill a year!!! Wow, that'll sure keep me from being homeless. Catholic charities doesn't even begin to cover the basic needs of the working poor (or the unemployed in my case).

quote: Regardless, the "living wage" argument is bogus in a time when there are other means to keep families afloat who are below the poverty line.

BS! Besides, a person shouldn't have to rely on charity to make a living. They ought to be able to pay their own way by their own work. Anyway, I thought you Repugs were opposed to making people dependent on charity, or is it just government assistance you hate?

	16-10-2004 20:48									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, the question is why should their be a minimum wage if the basic needs of a family are taken care of by society?

Why should people be forced to live off of charity while they work?

	16-10-2004 20:49									#125
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Why should I be forced to pay you money because you aren't able to hold down a job che?

	16-10-2004 20:50									#126
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So I don't rob you at gunpoint.

It's in society's interests not to have worker's lives totally disrupted while looking for new work. Society is more productive in the long run.

	16-10-2004 20:51									#127
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You don't know where I live.

	16-10-2004 20:52									#128
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Me and you are generalizations. Unemployment insurance helps keep crime levels lower.

	16-10-2004 20:53									#129
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Originally posted by Ned No doubt that this can be a problem. There is still Catholic Charities to fall back on. You ever rely upon Catholic Charities? I have. Woo! They pay for ONE electric bill a year!!! Wow, that'll sure keep me from being homeless. Catholic charities doesn't even begin to cover the basic needs of the working poor (or the unemployed in my case). quote: Regardless, the "living wage" argument is bogus in a time when there are other means to keep families afloat who are below the poverty line. BS! Besides, a person shouldn't have to rely on charity to make a living. They ought to be able to pay their own way by their own work. Anyway, I thought you Repugs were opposed to making people dependent on charity, or is it just government assistance you hate?

The way to higher wages is through higher skills. This takes experience, training or education. What the minimum wage does is prevent people from getting jobs at wages below the minimum, which many may be willing to take for reasons of their own. For example, why should a babysitting job for a young teenager cost the mother and father $5.50 per hour? That teenager certainly is NOT supporting a family.

	16-10-2004 20:54									#130
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Anyway what does this have to do with Wal-Mart since they already pay more than the minimum wage? Hell they even provide health insurance.

	16-10-2004 20:56									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Ned For example, why should a babysitting job for a young teenager cost the mother and father $5.50 per hour?

I thought you were a believer in the market. The reason is that they didn't care to try and find someone that would be willing to watch the kid for a cheaper price.

	16-10-2004 20:56									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Ned The way to higher wages is through higher skills. This takes experience, training or education.

So how do they get those skills when they are working full time and taking care of kids the rest of the time?

quote: What the minimum wage does is prevent people from getting jobs at wages below the minimum, which many may be willing to take for reasons of their own.

Jobs below minimum wage shouldn't exist. If you can't afford to pay a person enough to maintain themselves, then you shouldn't be trying to hire someone. You should go to Sudan and buy a slave instead.

quote: For example, why should a babysitting job for a young teenager cost the mother and father $5.50 per hour? That teenager certainly is NOT supporting a family.

Again, pointing to a tiny minority of workers to justify screwing the vast majority of people on min wage. Repugs. Open enemies of working people.

	16-10-2004 20:58									#133
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Anyway what does this have to do with Wal-Mart since they already pay more than the minimum wage? Hell they even provide health insurance.

I believe this is what's known as a "thread jack."

	16-10-2004 21:01									#134
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Che, still diverting attention. The needs of a family are independent from the needs of a worker and an employer in a particular circumstance. We should address each separately, IMO. Why should we mix the two?

	16-10-2004 21:04									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, still diverting attention.

Is that your new catch phrase when your inhumanity towards your fellow humans is pointed out?

quote: The needs of a family are independent from the needs of a worker and an employer in a particular circumstance. We should address each separately, IMO. Why should we mix the two?

Because the two aren't seperate. The needs of a family are the needs of a worker, unless you believe people shouldn't take care of their children. As far as employers go, I don't care. I'm partisan for the working class, not the capitalist class.

	16-10-2004 21:41									#136
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Minimum wage was not meant to be used to support a family.

	16-10-2004 21:49									#137
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Yes it was. Teenagers didn't become an important factor in employment until the 60s with the rise of fast food. Min. wage was established in the 30s, and was explicitely meant to help working families.

	16-10-2004 22:23									#138
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quote: There nothing inconsistent! He wants the stuff removed, but it doesn't mean he can't take advantage of government services until then - because HE won't be coercing anyone.

So he is not coercing anyone, but he is supporting the coercive apparatus by taking advatange of state funding. It'd be like someone on welfare for 2 years saying the government should get rid of a welfare. It's a total disconnect from reality. If you really believed the government should not be providing those services (like setting up universities), you should not pay your money to them, because any state university will charge you tuition, even if you are an in state individual. So you are paying them more than simply your tax money.

Basically he is benefiting from something voluntary (going to a university isn't forced on you) that he wants destroyed. How silly is that?

	16-10-2004 22:41									#139
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It's not silly from my point of view. We commies believe in taking advantage of the system, but it's not internally consistent with the rigid ethical code of libertarianism.

	16-10-2004 22:44									#140
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by chegitz guevara quote: Regardless, the "living wage" argument is bogus in a time when there are other means to keep families afloat who are below the poverty line. BS! Besides, a person shouldn't have to rely on charity to make a living. They ought to be able to pay their own way by their own work. Anyway, I thought you Repugs were opposed to making people dependent on charity, or is it just government assistance you hate?

Government assistance. While some of us, from a personal standpoint, may see charities as detrimental to society in the long run, they are as much a part of personal liberty as anything.

	16-10-2004 22:45									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, since it is asking for big bucks in exchange for the forest, the only way really is to exploit it. Natural resources and territory are supposed to be public, but in the way they are managed they really are just exploitation spots in the waiting for prospective corporations. Now how can you say that it's not corporation friendly?

Because everyone has equal opportunity to buy it. It's just, those who pay the most end up getting it.

	16-10-2004 22:51									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Government assistance. While some of us, from a personal standpoint, may see charities as detrimental to society in the long run, they are as much a part of personal liberty as anything.

Don't give me your liber-tyranny crap. Ned's a typical conservative, and they've been decrying for years the dependency of people on welfare and government assistence. Rather than ensuring that people make enough money on to support themselves, he wants employers to be able pay starvation wages and private charities make up the gap. They always talk about getting people to take care of themselves, but he want to create a class of people permanently dependent on charity who are also working at the same time. That's EVIL!

	16-10-2004 23:18									#143
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Anyway what does this have to do with Wal-Mart since they already pay more than the minimum wage? Hell they even provide health insurance.

In the case of this Canadian store, the employees get no special benefits, and are paid $0.50 above the min. wage.

	16-10-2004 23:20									#144
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Strange that a cashier in MS gets a better deal than you Canadians.

	17-10-2004 00:01									#145
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OTOH, health insurance is not required in Canada.

	17-10-2004 01:57									#146
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The Minimum wage is an inappropriate way of helping the poor. By raising the cost of labor, if you have an ineffective minimum wage it encourages unemployment. Other alternatives such as cutting down and payroll and sales taxes and replacing them with more progressive taxes, or government assistance with expenses such as health care are better way of helping the poorest people.

	17-10-2004 02:00									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Well, since it is asking for big bucks in exchange for the forest, the only way really is to exploit it. Natural resources and territory are supposed to be public, but in the way they are managed they really are just exploitation spots in the waiting for prospective corporations. Now how can you say that it's not corporation friendly? Because everyone has equal opportunity to buy it. It's just, those who pay the most end up getting it.

Therefore, it is corporation friendly, because corporations are those who will be using it for profitable purposes.

	17-10-2004 17:40									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Therefore, it is corporation friendly, because corporations are those who will be using it for profitable purposes.

As of course, anything that allows more profit is evil, evil, evil... according to the left. And we are to trust these guys with the US economy?

	17-10-2004 17:43									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi By raising the cost of labor, if you have an ineffective minimum wage it encourages unemployment.

While this seems logical on its face, historically it has proben to be untrue. Nearly every raise of the min wage is followed by economic expansion. Putting more money in the hands of the poorest workers raises demand for products, which in turn, raises demand for labor, despite it's increased cost. So while there may be a short term dip in employment, in the medium to long run, the working poor do much better.

	17-10-2004 17:48									#150
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Don't give me your liber-tyranny crap.

This is about as juvenile as M$

Grow up, if you're going to attack something at least back it up.

quote: Ned's a typical conservative, and they've been decrying for years the dependency of people on welfare and government assistence. Rather than ensuring that people make enough money on to support themselves, he wants employers to be able pay starvation wages and private charities make up the gap. They always talk about getting people to take care of themselves, but he want to create a class of people permanently dependent on charity who are also working at the same time. That's EVIL!

1) it's not evil, given that there's no coercion involved...

2) he doesn't want people to be dependent on welfare, but he is actively opposed to welfare and minimum-wage laws. In the first case he thinks it's detrimental to society, though he wouldn't actually use coercion (the government) to do anything about it. In the second case, he's trying to prevent coercion by the government, and so he WILL do something about it, vote.