15-10-2004 11:58									#61
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quote: Ever hear of, as you call them, scabs? Ever hear of unemployment? Because I guarantee you, when there is unemployment, workers who go on strike CAN be replaced.

Not at all. In fact, many very successful strikes in US history have been during times of massive unemployment. The wild cat strikes (something else that the state has prohibited) of the mid-late 30's were remarkably successful, for instance. Strikes work, and they work very, very well.

quote: What's your point?

My point is that employers are in no sense forced into accepting union shop contracts (again, they're even legally prohibited in half of the states in the country). They face some coercion, but workers face much more.

	15-10-2004 12:00									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: I consider the quasi-unlimited right they get to public property and means of production a privilege, and also the continual diminution of their taxes (which are then passed to individuals) as privileges. Everyone has an equal right to "public property" and "means of production". The fact that pretty much anything with means of production is, by definition, a business, doesn't make it a "privelege".

So I have an equal right to the forest as Abitibi Paper has got? You should tell me that next time I want to trek there. Corporations pollute and affect the quality of life of persons unrelated to their activities and have absolutely no legal obligation regarding their use of the public domain.


Face it, the assumption that unlimited property should be recognized and accepted is huge. We live in a super-pro corporation society.

	15-10-2004 12:01									#63
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Social Security is not sustainable

Where did you get that?

	15-10-2004 12:01									#64
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quote: The reason this country has a halfway decent standard of living for most people is because of unions. Unions gave us a minimum wage, social security, health care, and a lot of other nice stuff that countries which don't have legal unions don't have.

Industrialisation, specialisation and a post WWII world is what allowed all that. Unions cause inflation and corruption

	15-10-2004 12:02									#65
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Corporations cause everything that's bad.

	15-10-2004 12:06									#66
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quote: Strikes work, and they work very, very well.

And I don't oppose the right of workers to strike. What I oppose are laws protected their jobs while they refuse to work. I'm sure you're right, in that strikes have caused employers to give in, but that isn't the point. I have no problem with that - my problem lies with the government intervening in favor of EITHER side, whether it's the workers or the employers.

	15-10-2004 12:11									#67
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You remember that I'm an anarchist, don't you?

	15-10-2004 12:13									#68
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So you agree that the State shouldn't intervene on other side? If so, then what are we arguing about?

	15-10-2004 12:16									#69
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Yes, and the argument was whether employers are forced into accepting union shop contracts; which they are not, even indirectly.

	15-10-2004 12:17									#70
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IF laws forbid employers for firing employees because they strike, or try to form unions, or anything of the sort, then yes, they are indirectly forced.

	15-10-2004 12:23									#71
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My point was that the coercion on workers is greater than the coercion on firms, so the idea that employers are being forced on this matter is nonsense.

	15-10-2004 12:24									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Don't new hirees need to join the union?

It depends on if it is a closed shop or not. In the old days all the unions pushed for closed shops especially in industrial plants because it made their striking power near absolute. The union could literally shut the entire place down anytime they wanted.

Labor reforms have made it much more difficult to create closed shops so now there are more open shops where some labor is union and others are nonunion. As the manufacturing base has eroded the unions have tried to move into retail and restaurant work but they've met very little success. It's pretty easy to unionize skilled labor like metal workers, pipe fiters, or what not but almost impossible to maintain a union of hotel maids, restaurant workers, or dish washers. Generally the harder it is to get into a field the easy it is to unionize because the union can effectively monopolize the skilled labor force.

	15-10-2004 12:27									#73
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quote: My point was that the coercion on workers is greater than the coercion on firms, so the idea that employers are being forced on this matter is nonsense.

And my points are that a)there is a difference between coercion in the form of laws and coercion in the form of employer-employee relations, and b)I'm not in favor of any government coercion when it comes to voluntary agreements between two parties.

	15-10-2004 12:28									#74
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Closed shops are illegal. Union shops, which are similar (workers have to join the union within a certain amount of time, no less than a month) are illegal in many states ("right to work" states).

	15-10-2004 12:30									#75
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quote: And my points are that a)there is a difference between coercion in the form of laws and coercion in the form of employer-employee relations,

And I'm referring to legal coercion. Again, laws greatly constrain the rights of workers as I pointed out earlier. I'd say that state interference generally hurts the workers and helps the management.

	15-10-2004 12:31									#76
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Fortunately, Texas is a right to work state, but in any case, you probably know more about union regulations/union law than I do, so I'm not gonna argue with you on the fine points of it except to say that, again, I have no problem with unions, strikes, etc., so long as the state does not protect them from (non-violent) retaliation.

	15-10-2004 12:32									#77
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quote: Again, laws greatly constrain the rights of workers as I pointed out earlier.

And I oppose those laws as well, provided we are talking about "rights" from the same perspective. I don't believe that I have a right to employment, for example.

	15-10-2004 12:32									#78
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Right to work states are unlibertarian. They prohibit union shops.

	15-10-2004 12:33									#79
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Yes, I'm talking about rights as you mean it (see my specific objections).

	15-10-2004 12:34									#80
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As long as the union shop exists, WITHOUT the union being protected by the government, then I have no problem with it.

But without any government protection, I just don't think we'd see that many union shops. As effective as strikes may be, or may have been in the past, I just don't see them being ALL THAT effective today in the United States.

	15-10-2004 12:38									#81
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quote: As long as the union shop exists, WITHOUT the union being protected by the government, then I have no problem with it.

What are you saying? You think union shops should be prohibited?

quote: But without any government protection, I just don't think we'd see that many union shops.

If a union can't defend itself without the state, it probably wouldn't have been able to get a union shop contract in the first place. That's a pretty big concession.

quote: As effective as strikes may be, or may have been in the past, I just don't see them being ALL THAT effective today in the United States.

Why's that?

	15-10-2004 17:21									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: As long as the union shop exists, WITHOUT the union being protected by the government, then I have no problem with it. What are you saying? You think union shops should be prohibited?

No he doesn't; he thinks union shops should be legal, but employer should be completely free to try and break unions, as long as they don't violate a contractual obligation.

	15-10-2004 17:45									#83
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quote: That's odd, I'm not in a union, and I'm doing fine. Interestingly enough, I get by through my own hard work and merit, rather than relying on government rules and regulations and bullshit.

Says the man that went to state university and lived off his parents for a good portion of it .

	15-10-2004 20:23									#84
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Do Canadian laws allow companies to crush their unions? Allowing this seems to provide a lot of balance.

Take a look at who is playing hockey in our NHL rinks next season for your answer.

	15-10-2004 20:46									#85
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quote: and lived off his parents for a good portion of it

That's actually not true, but I'm not gonna argue about it with someone who's pretty much just trying to be a dick.

	15-10-2004 21:02									#86
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Why worry about Unions. Just set the minimum wage to whatever you please. Let's pick a number. $25/hr. Sound about right?

	15-10-2004 21:10									#87
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That's actually not true, but I'm not gonna argue about it with someone who's pretty much just trying to be a dick.

Says the man who wants to put people on the street and take away their government welfare, but will gladly accept going to a university backed by state funds .

If anyone is the dick here, it's you.

	15-10-2004 22:48									#88
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quote: No he doesn't; he thinks union shops should be legal, but employer should be completely free to try and break unions, as long as they don't violate a contractual obligation.

Yes, I know he said that. I was trying to clarify what he meant by that statement, which (along with the comment that it's good Texas is a "right to work" state) seems to imply that he believes that as long as legal protection of unions exist, union shops ought to be prohibited.

	15-10-2004 23:32									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Why worry about Unions. Just set the minimum wage to whatever you please. Let's pick a number. $25/hr. Sound about right?

The worse part with you is that even with such statements we can't be sure you're joking.

	16-10-2004 02:13									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris So I have an equal right to the forest as Abitibi Paper has got?

Yes.