17-10-2004 17:50									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Therefore, it is corporation friendly, because corporations are those who will be using it for profitable purposes.

You could use it for profitable purposes too, if you wanted and you were capable of it (had enough money). It's not "corporation-friendly" at all, because the ONLY discrimination is based on how much money you pay, which is quite valid.

	17-10-2004 17:50									#152
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara While this seems logical on its face, historically it has proben to be untrue. Nearly every raise of the min wage is followed by economic expansion. Putting more money in the hands of the poorest workers raises demand for products, which in turn, raises demand for labor, despite it's increased cost. So while there may be a short term dip in employment, in the medium to long run, the working poor do much better.

You know Che, I still would favor subsidies to the working poor rather than impose a minimum wage. Being against the minimum wage doesn't mean one is against the poor. It means one is against price controls, which everyone with any sense at all knows are extremely destructive of economies.

	17-10-2004 17:59									#153
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quote: Originally posted by Ned It means one is against price controls, which everyone with any sense at all knows are extremely destructive of economies.

That is not a universal truth. As I've pointed out, raising the min. wage historically is followed by economic growth as it increases demand for products. Utilities are frequently subject to price controls. As seen in California, occassionally when those controls are loosened, it results in economic disaster. In the case of Manhatten, price controls on rent have been a disaster.

	17-10-2004 18:01									#154
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara That is not a universal truth. As I've pointed out, raising the min. wage historically is followed by economic growth as it increases demand for products. Utilities are frequently subject to price controls. As seen in California, occassionally when those controls are loosened, it results in economic disaster. In the case of Manhatten, price controls on rent have been a disaster.

There may be some short term truth in this as those that remain employed get a raise and those that don't get unemployment.

That still does not change the fact that over the long term price controls are destructive.

	17-10-2004 18:04									#155
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Again, history does not bear you out. That's the problem with you conservatives. You see something as true in one little spot and sudenly it becomes true everywhere for all times. Raising the min wage spurs economic growth, and despite your Republican articles of faith, that has been the way things have worked out in reality.

	17-10-2004 18:05									#156
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Imagine, Che, my reaction when Richard M(other F*cker) Nixon imposed wage price controls on the economy, and kept them on oil after the other controls had expired? I was appalled. My former admiration for this man as a president turned to something more akin to raw hatred.

	17-10-2004 18:06									#157
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Again, history does not bear you out. That's the problem with you conservatives. You see something as true in one little spot and sudenly it becomes true everywhere for all times. Raising the min wage spurs economic growth, and despite your Republican articles of faith, that has been the way things have worked out in reality.

Data please.

	17-10-2004 18:06									#158
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Again, just because something is true in one case doesn't make it true in another.

	17-10-2004 20:58									#159
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--"Raising the min wage spurs economic growth, and despite your Republican articles of faith, that has been the way things have worked out in reality."

Then why not just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr and make everyone rich?

Oh, that's right. There's only so much money available to hire employees. If the minimum you can get is higher, less will be employed. Wow, imagine that.

--"As seen in California, occassionally when those controls are loosened, it results in economic disaster."

Wow, MTG still hasn't pounded this line out of you?

Wraith
"Yes, to a first approximation."
-- Econominics professor Bernard Saffran, after being asked if money could buy happiness.

	17-10-2004 21:02									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"Raising the min wage spurs economic growth, and despite your Republican articles of faith, that has been the way things have worked out in reality." Then why not just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr and make everyone rich?

Just because a little of something is good doesn't mean a lot of something is. A little bit of a chemical is a medicine. A lot of it is a poison.

quote: --"As seen in California, occassionally when those controls are loosened, it results in economic disaster." Wow, MTG still hasn't pounded this line out of you?

It's more complex than that, but it is the basis of what happaned.

	17-10-2004 21:28									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As of course, anything that allows more profit is evil, evil, evil... according to the left. And we are to trust these guys with the US economy?

I didn't say that. The quarrel started with DanS and Kuci saying something like that corporations in Canada must have their hands tied in the back because of our union friendly laws.

That point was only an example to demonstrate that most anything in society is designed to be corporate friendly, and that our union laws are nothing more than a grain of sand in the Sahara.

	17-10-2004 21:31									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker You could use it for profitable purposes too, if you wanted and you were capable of it (had enough money). It's not "corporation-friendly" at all, because the ONLY discrimination is based on how much money you pay, which is quite valid.

That's the whole ****ing point! It assumes that everything, up to natural resources, must be governed by money! I could be in favor of this system if the government was regulating the market so that sidecosts (such as those to health and environment) were taken into account, but alas it isn't.

	17-10-2004 22:43									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Unions are nothing but a mob mentality endorsed by the government. I don't care if people form them, I care if they force me to join and force me to pay union dues. My first real job as a union job. It's true my starting pay was higher than most of my friends' in similar jobs, but after the dues were deducted I was making less. And where did my dues go? To the stupid ****ing left-wing propaganda they mailed MONTHLY to me even though I asked them to stop. They'd also put out a biannual "newsletter", which was ALWAYS the same "we're going to strike unless they pay us more! In other news, dues are increasing..." Losers

I you Asher.

	18-10-2004 00:13									#164
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara As seen in California, occassionally when those controls are loosened, it results in economic disaster. In the case of Manhatten, price controls on rent have been a disaster.

Economic disaster? I think you are refering to the ending of housing price controls in certain bay area cities. Sure, the prices shot up after the controls were lifted but that was only the market reflecting 20 years of price controls thus putting the land at it's true value instead of the artificially depressed price.

	18-10-2004 00:21									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Economic disaster?

I was referring to the energy deregulation.

	18-10-2004 00:58									#166
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Deregulation never happened. Instead there was a partial lifting which was worse then doing nothing. It didn't help that Enron paid politicians to rig the system for it and then stole billions of dollars from consumers.

	18-10-2004 01:28									#167
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quote: While this seems logical on its face, historically it has proben to be untrue.

It's economic orthodoxy that minimum wage laws increase unemployment, insofar as they increase the cost of labor (some minimum wages are so low as to have little impact). I have no reason to question the orthodoxy. As Roland was so fond of pointing out, some European countries such as Austria don't have minimum wages.

Even commies should agree that this is the case in a free-market economy and propose policies accordingly.

	18-10-2004 01:32									#168
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I don't agree with minimum wages. It's like Affirmative Action... it's the wrong solution for the problem... though it's better than doing nothing and allowing corporations to dictate wages.

Some people on this board live in a dilluded fantasy world where there is this mysterious entity known as a "market" that "fairly determines wages". The people who control the means of production control the wages.

Damn, now you dopes got me sounding like a damned commie.

	18-10-2004 02:44									#169
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If raising the min wage expands employment, why did the Sierra Club of California ask for an exemption from the increase they pushed for in California? What did the Sierra Club say when asking for the exemption? That they would have to lay off people if required to pay employees more! C'mon, the notion that raising the cost of labor creates more jobs is ludicrous, just ask the Sierra Club when it's looking out for itself as opposed to screwing other businesses.

The BS is amazing... Force other employers to pay higher labor costs because it'll expand the economy, but don't force us because we'll have to lay people off. That's liberal logic in a nutshell...

	18-10-2004 02:49									#170
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What's an enviromental organization doing pushing for a higher wage?

	18-10-2004 03:06									#171
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Also Kuci, I know that my example about the regulation of property is probably too 'theoric' in nature, so I might as well point out that corporations are paying less and less taxes while the subsidies they receive are slightly rising.

	18-10-2004 03:45									#172
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quote: What's an enviromental organization doing pushing for a higher wage?

Protecting the environment.

Someone apparently accused opponents of raising the min wage of being against the poor. What about the poor people who lose jobs or can't get jobs because of the increased min wage?

	18-10-2004 04:05									#173
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Raising the minimum wage gives a few people more money but it increases everyone's costs. I'd bet that the majority of people on minimum wage are students. Sure, you'll have a fair percentage of illegal immigrants, ex-cons, and the mentally handicapped but most people who work full time won't have a minimum wage job. If you want to help these people make more money then training them with useful job skills would be the best way to do that.

Raising the minimum wage does put pressure on employers to either reduce costs or raise prices so there will be lost jobs. If the over all economy is doing great then these lost jobs can be made up in other areas but that isn't guaranteed. I remember a good study done in the early 1990's about a minimum wage increase in New Jersey. It dealt exclusively with the fast food industry and how they handled the increases in labor costs. It showed that the number of people working at each restaurant almost always went down as management tried to cut costs by getting a few full timers to replace a bunch of part timers.

	18-10-2004 04:07									#174
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc What's an enviromental organization doing pushing for a higher wage?

The Sierra Club is supposed to be an enviromental organization but it has its nose into everything these days.

	18-10-2004 04:13									#175
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris That's the whole ****ing point! It assumes that everything, up to natural resources, must be governed by money! I could be in favor of this system if the government was regulating the market so that sidecosts (such as those to health and environment) were taken into account, but alas it isn't.

WTF is wrong with something being sold to the highest bidder? (The real problem, however, is pure libertarianism doesn't have a mechanism for explaining what to do with unowned things.)

	18-10-2004 04:14									#176
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Also Kuci, I know that my example about the regulation of property is probably too 'theoric' in nature, so I might as well point out that corporations are paying less and less taxes while the subsidies they receive are slightly rising.

That trend is also anti-libertarian. It's not a problem with capitalism or the market, it's a problem with INTERFERENCE in the market.

	18-10-2004 06:44									#177
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That trend is also anti-libertarian. It's not a problem with capitalism or the market, it's a problem with INTERFERENCE in the market.

Libertarianism aside, it shows the overall friendlyness of government towards enterprises. They don't have to pay their part, and the money they receive is just icing on the cake.

quote: WTF is wrong with something being sold to the highest bidder? (The real problem, however, is pure libertarianism doesn't have a mechanism for explaining what to do with unowned things.)

You've said it yourself. 'Unowned' stuff goes to the state, which assumes in most cases that it's there for the highest bidder. Remember, I'm not saying that it's necessarily bad. This whole (silly) argument just traces back to your naive post implicitly saying that unions in Canada were way too powerful, and that corporations were victims of unfair laws. My point here is that when you look at it from a global perspective, you realize that it's pretty much the opposite, that everything on society from property laws (recognized as a basic right in many constitutions) to taxation to the governing of natural resources is corporate friendly.

	18-10-2004 06:49									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Unions are nothing but a mob mentality endorsed by the government.

Last time you talked about philosophy, I remember you saying that you aced your Logic course.

Didn't they teach you that a very quick and efficient way to test the validity of an argument is to compare it to its opposite?

Anti-unionism is nothing but an individualistic mentality endorsed by the government*.

*Where the 'government' would be that of a union-unfriendly country, say, South Korea.

	18-10-2004 06:52									#179
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quote: Libertarianism aside, it shows the overall friendlyness of government towards enterprises. They don't have to pay their part, and the money they receive is just icing on the cake.

You must like in your own little world, fake boris. Enterprises not only pay the majority of the taxes recieved but they also provide the jobs which most people work at. In short they pay for just about everything we have.

	18-10-2004 06:54									#180
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Corporations provide 20% of public funds, down from 50% in the 70s.