17-10-2004 04:49									#31
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Both.

	17-10-2004 04:59									#32
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the latter shouldn't be of concern. you get rid of the fact that a state like Wyoming has 3 votes and you'll only see candidates visiting large states.

	17-10-2004 05:00									#33
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Of course it's a concern. It's absolutely ridiculous that someone else's vote should count three times mine. There's a reason the farmers wouldn't be represented as much - because there aren't as many of them! They get too many subsidies as it is.

	17-10-2004 05:02									#34
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and candidates will only visit New York, PA, Florida, Texas, and California... they don't need to win any other state.

	17-10-2004 05:03									#35
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Moses:

quote: I say this because the candidates only campaign in swing states. The rest of the country hardly even matters to them. Bush was going to come to Delaware, but then he was rescheduled or something. Kerry never even made the attempt as far as I know.

get rid of the electoral college and it won't change that with respect to Delaware... Delaware won't have enough electoral votes to be of concern and candidates will still not go there.

	17-10-2004 05:05									#36
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Of course they do, because there'd be no winner-takes all system. And even if there were, they'd need to win some other states. Besides, I don't really mind if those are the only areas they visit.

Anyway, I live in Northern Virginia outside DC, so my interests are very well represented in Congress re: federal funding

	17-10-2004 05:06									#37
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Right now the candidates completely ignore states that are solidly in one camp or the other. Bush will never visit California, and Kerry never Texas. What's the problem with ignoring states?

So what if smaller states are ignored? People's votes still count as much as someone from NYC.

	17-10-2004 05:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Of course it's a concern. It's absolutely ridiculous that someone else's vote should count three times mine. There's a reason the farmers wouldn't be represented as much - because there aren't as many of them! They get too many subsidies as it is.

There might be some problems with the electoral vote system, but rural voters would be virtually disfranchised if this system was abolished.

	17-10-2004 05:25									#39
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Good! They're already overenfranchised!

	17-10-2004 05:27									#40
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A citizen of California has 4x the power of a citizen of Montana to decide the president.

	17-10-2004 05:28									#41
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Not at all.

	17-10-2004 05:29									#42
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You cannot argue against Wikipedia and it's links.

You are refuted.

	17-10-2004 05:35									#43
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quote: A citizen of California has 4x the power of a citizen of Montana to decide the president.

You have it the other way around. Since electoral votes are apportioned according to the number of members of Congress coming from the state, every state gets 2 extra electoral votes due to its 2 Senators by default. So Montana (with 3 electoral votes) gets 2.89 times the electoral votes per capita that California (with 55 electoral votes) gets.

	17-10-2004 05:38									#44
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He's referring to the winner-takes-all part of it.

	17-10-2004 05:41									#45
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California is winner take all and Montana is winner take all. I don't see how that makes a difference. What does the number 4 mean in that context?

	17-10-2004 06:04									#46
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It doesn't, I was just explaining his flawed thought processes

	17-10-2004 06:22									#47
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One way to start would be for the large states to basically gang up on the small states in the one place they hold power, the House. They could say to the samll states, give up the electoral college or you won't see a dime of Federal money until you do. Of course, the Senate could block any appropriations bill that didn't give them any money, but since the big states (population wise) subsidize the small states, they could better survive a government shut down.

A back door way to minimize the effect of the EC would be to leave it in place but pass an law that forces states to divide them proportionally among the candidates (by lording it over their purse strings). It would still give a slight edge to the smallest states, but it would make things a lot fairer overall. Once this happens, it will make the EC largely irrlevent, and it will be easier to abolish it outright.

Alternately, only count representives for the division of the EC. The small states would never go for that, though.

	17-10-2004 06:25									#48
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It would be a disaster to get rid of the EC. Without it, large population centers would have too much influence in the election, people living in rural areas would essentially have no vote. After all, why both campaigning in small towns in the midwest when NYC has several million voters?

So what? Why should people in rural areas have disproportionate say over the president? Cuz they're more spread out!?! Maybe we should apportion taxes disproportionately based on the EC. After all, greater representation should mean greater taxation.

	17-10-2004 06:27									#49
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How exactly are you going to pass anything in Congress without the support of the states your trying to punish?

	17-10-2004 06:35									#50
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Because the states with massively disproportionate representation are a minority of states. I did note, however, that it would be a problem getting things through the Senate.

	17-10-2004 06:39									#51
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Like I said how exactly are you going to pass anything in Congress without the support of the states your trying to punish?

	17-10-2004 06:40									#52
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Sure, everyone likes farmers, no one wants to see them disenfranchised. But what about, say, mormons? Since they are focused in a single state, they are way over-represented per capita compared to most other groups. Should we keep a mormon-biased system? What about a group that has a presence in every state but only as a small minority. It might represent the same fraction of the population as farmers, yet is be vastly less represented since it doesn't control any particular states. Is that fair?

	17-10-2004 06:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Like I said how exactly are you going to pass anything in Congress without the support of the states your trying to punish?

Shut down the government and wait for the smaller states to cry uncle?

	17-10-2004 06:44									#54
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I don't think the small states have the stones to even attempt something like that.

	17-10-2004 06:49									#55
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Most other democracies elect by direct popular vote, how does it work out there?

	17-10-2004 06:50									#56
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I personally think the EC is a great thing... definately a compromise, but the best solution yet seen for the problem of big regions versus smaller ones.

If you want to see the alternative look at other countries, like Canada for example. In our last election, the conservatives won pretty much everything west of Ontarioand the Bloc Quebecois pretty much won all of Quebec. But because the Liberals did well in a few big cities in Ontario (and got a few seats in the East), the Liberals got to form the next government. How is that democratic considering the majority of the country (not people-wise) voted for a different party?

If the EC were gone, we'd have California and New York dictating the outcome of every election.

	17-10-2004 06:51									#57
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Uhhh, because all that matter is the people?

By that logic Antarctica should have a permanent UNSC seat.

	17-10-2004 06:58									#58
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I don't see how the big states would run everything without the EC, if the presidential election was decided strictly on the popular vote. Individual states wouldn't matter anymore. The candidates would have to appeal more to specific demographics.

	17-10-2004 07:00									#59
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Antartica is not a country

	17-10-2004 07:01									#60
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Think of the penguins!