17-10-2004 21:09									#121
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara States rights are antidemocratic. No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens, only to screw them.

I call bullshit. One need to only look at the marijuana initiatives in California, Euthanasia in Oregon over federal objections, and the battle over gay marriage to see what crock you're spewing.

	17-10-2004 21:09									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Wraith --"I think Wraith just gave a good example of where States stood up for the rights of their citizens." Have I even posted in this thread before now? ^_^

That's what I was thinking. So, do you just like, do searches on your name or what?

	17-10-2004 21:12									#123
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I call bullshit. One need to only look at the marijuana initiatives in California, Euthanasia in Oregon over federal objections, and the battle over gay marriage to see what crock you're spewing.

Whose upholding states rights to help gay marriage? And Repug and Democrat alike have attacked both the euthenasia and medical marijuana initiatives, so when I see someone stand up for them I'll agree. In any event, two counter examples do not reverse an historical trend.

	17-10-2004 21:13									#124
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--"So, do you just like, do searches on your name or what?"

Not often. I just happened to be reading this one. This kind of thread seems to pop up every year. They're always amusing.

Wraith
"The Constitution admittedly has a few defects and blemishes, but it still seems a hell of a lot better than the system we have now."
- Robert Anton Wilson

	17-10-2004 21:18									#125
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Whose upholding states rights to help gay marriage?

The whole issue wouldn't exist if it were up to the Federal Government or haven't you been paying attention.

quote: And Repug and Democrat alike have attacked both the euthenasia and medical marijuana initiatives, so when I see someone stand up for them I'll agree.

Yes, it's to be expected that the Federal government would be hostile to State's Rights given its history on the matter. As for people standing up for them you might try looking at the people of said State.

quote: In any event, two counter examples do not reverse an historical trend.

No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens, only to screw them. What's your opinion again Mr. Kerry?

	17-10-2004 21:20									#126
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Okay, fine, you proved my hyperbole was hyperbole.

	17-10-2004 21:22									#127
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It's always interesting see you argue for increased federal control when the federal government uses said control to squash initiatives from the "evil" states that you agree with.

	17-10-2004 21:25									#128
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What can I say? States' rights is in general more oppressive than helpful. If I have to lose some good things to get rid of a lot of bad things, I can sacrifice.

	17-10-2004 21:27									#129
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I live in Colorado and I'm willing to give water to California, even if it makes my water costs go up.

Can we get rid of the EC now?

	17-10-2004 21:28									#130
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No.

	17-10-2004 22:53									#131
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The Federal government has the ability to trump any State's attempt at segregation if they wanted to. State's rights is NOT about segregation. It is about giving equal protection for regional issues to the States. For example, The Colorado river could be totally dominated by the large population of southern California and the people of Colorado and Arizona left out in the cold if it wasn't for their respective State governments standing up for their rights.

I have some respect for the principle of states' rights, since, as you pointed out, there are positive uses for holding to the principle of states' rights.


But you also have to acknowledge the fact that historically, states' rights has often been used to repress minority groups and discriminate against them.


I'm kinda torn between respect for the positive potential of states' rights and its historical legacy of being used to beat down minority groups.

	17-10-2004 23:05									#132
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What the hell does all this small state crap have to do with electing a president?

HELLO PEOPLE! The president as the executive enforces the law- it is the LEGISLATURE that makes the law. Only in our current screwed up mentality is this basic fact forgotten. The SENATE is the greatest power that small states have, NOT the EC.

In fact, how the hell do small states gain in the current 2 party EC system? Does anyone visit Montana,the Dakotas, or any of the toher small states that are now solidly in one party? The only small state getting any attention is New Hampshire. Michigan, Ohio, Florida, Minnessota hardly count as "small States.

The last election saw a difference of 500,000 voters, You could get that in New York, OR in Nebraska. If the election of a president was purely based on the popular vote, the candidates would have top go everywhere (or at least those places they thought their party would be able to secure the most votes) to get votes. What republican would head to NYC? They would head to rural and suburban Upstate NY.

	17-10-2004 23:08									#133
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What republican would head to NYC? They would head to rural and suburban Upstate NY.

Isn't Guilliani (**** spelling) a Republican?


If so, how did he ever became mayor of New York City?

	17-10-2004 23:10									#134
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Because he is for gun control, for gay rights, for abortion rights, and won because his opponent and the incumbent had precided over a huge spike in crime (highest number of recorded murders ever in the City) and racial tension riots.

of 59 elected positions in City Government, the republican party in NYC holds 5.

You do the math.

	17-10-2004 23:11									#135
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ok, then

	17-10-2004 23:25									#136
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And GePap, did he in your opinion do a good job as mayor?

	18-10-2004 00:37									#137
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quote: No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens

As well as what DD said, after Bowers v. Hardwick, it was the states that decriminalized homosexual actions, when the federal government said it was ok to discriminate (up until Lawrence v. Texas.

-

Oh, and the President is not supposed to be the executive of the people, but over the states and the federal appartus. Remember in the old Articles of Confederation, the President of the Congress was picked by an equal vote of the States.

Anyway, I hate this states aren't soveriegn, the people are BS. States most definetly are soveriegn and certain states are in the forefront of changing attitudes (such as Massachusetts being at the forefront of legalization of gay marriage, when the feds would probably like to ban it).

	18-10-2004 00:40									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: No one ever sees anyone standing up for the states' rights to protect their citizens As well as what DD said, after Bowers v. Hardwick, it was the states that decriminalized homosexual actions, when the federal government said it was ok to discriminate (up until Lawrence v. Texas. - Oh, and the President is not supposed to be the executive of the people, but over the states and the federal appartus. Remember in the old Articles of Confederation, the President of the Congress was picked by an equal vote of the States. Anyway, I hate this states aren't soveriegn, the people are BS. States most definetly are soveriegn and certain states are in the forefront of changing attitudes (such as Massachusetts being at the forefront of legalization of gay marriage, when the feds would probably like to ban it).

Which is why I'm torn somewhat between respect for states' rights and its historical use of beatng down minority groups.

It seems that recently, states' rights is beginning to turn away from being a means to repress minority groups, and god forbid -- be used for real, constructive purposes.


So I think I'm warming up more to states' rights now, due to the recent changes, such as the way individual states are trying to enact equal rights regardless of sexual orientation, or other important issues.

If this kind of positive change continues in regards to states' right, then great.

	18-10-2004 01:34									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Ming I think the EC has long outlived it's real purpose. This lose the state by one vote crap and get nothing for it is just stupid. It is also another way to keep third party candidates out of the way.

I agree with Ming.

	18-10-2004 01:37									#140
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat It would be a disaster to get rid of the EC. Without it, large population centers would have too much influence in the election, people living in rural areas would essentially have no vote. After all, why both campaigning in small towns in the midwest when NYC has several million voters? We must keep the EC system so that every state has a fair role in the election and is not disenfranchised.

Wrong... abolishing the electoral college evens the playing field.

1 person, 1 vote... no more winner take all bullshit.

but as a right winger, I know you hate real democracy.

	18-10-2004 06:01									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Sava 1 person, 1 vote... no more winner take all bullshit. but as a right winger, I know you hate real democracy.

I want "1 person, 1 vote" in my State. I want my state to be able to hold its own among larger states. Why should the issues that are important to Californians be thrust upon Tennesseans? We are further apart than Europe is wide. (well...almost.)

	18-10-2004 06:05									#142
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quote: Originally posted by GePap What the hell does all this small state crap have to do with electing a president? The SENATE is the greatest power that small states have, NOT the EC.

I have to agree with GePap here. The Senate is the great equalizer. The Senate would protect the minority interests of the small states.

The EC was formed because the founding fathers didn't fully trust the people.

I said this before, but it bears repeating.

If the presidential election was decided strictly on the popular vote. Individual states wouldn't matter anymore. The candidates would have to appeal more to specific demographics.

In other words they would have to travel to places they would never usually go.

	18-10-2004 06:05									#143
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I don't consider Tennessee to be a small state. . without the electoral college, big cities in Tennessee would still be important to politicians.

State like mine are small. And even my state isn't as small as it used to be. we actually have 5 electoral votes now.

	18-10-2004 06:06									#144
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quote: I want "1 person, 1 vote" in my State. I want my state to be able to hold its own among larger states. Why should the issues that are important to Californians be thrust upon Tennesseans? We are further apart than Europe is wide. (well...almost.)

How, exactly, does the electoral college have anything to do with de-centralized governance?

	18-10-2004 06:06									#145
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO While the Civil war did radically degrade the power of the States, I believe that it is important that it not be degraded further.

Why? I don't see anything inherently special about the states anymore, and I don't see why there should be anything. The states should essentially be administrative districts, and the point of state's rights now IMO is only to keep the federal government from messing with stuff that can be done much better at a local level (schools, etc.).

	18-10-2004 06:08									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by PLATO While the Civil war did radically degrade the power of the States, I believe that it is important that it not be degraded further. Why? I don't see anything inherently special about the states anymore, and I don't see why there should be anything. The states should essentially be administrative districts, and the point of state's rights now IMO is only to keep the federal government from messing with stuff that can be done much better at a local level (schools, etc.).

no way. each state has it's own culture. It makes it a joy to travel accross america to see all of them. If they are all the same, what's the point of seeing them?

	18-10-2004 06:09									#147
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I'm a Floridian in that I live in Florida. I do not consider my self identity to be a Floridian in the way I consider myself to be an American. It used to be people were Virginians before they were Americans. States are where we live, not who were are.

You're a commie, you're not allowed to call yourself American

	18-10-2004 06:11									#148
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I consider myself a Nevadan before an American. America suck anyways. Damn country illegally invading other countries. My state has never done that.

	18-10-2004 06:11									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker the point of state's rights now IMO is only to keep the federal government from messing with stuff that can be done much better at a local level (schools, etc.).

This has always been the point. Some things at the local level that are important vary from state to state.

	18-10-2004 06:13									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I consider myself a Nevadan before an American. America suck anyways. Damn country illegally invading other countries. My state has never done that.

Just whored itself to criminal gangs.