18-10-2004 22:28									#211
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And then democrats introduce such measures in all southern states, florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and all western states.

And if republicans oppose it in any state, we call them undemocratic, and then have a reason not to move in our blue states.

That's how it works.

	18-10-2004 22:29									#212
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Just checked. The Colorado initiative was placed on the ballot by the Sec. of State after certifying a petition signed by enough people. This is NOT the act of Colorado's legislature. Lawsuits are already on file challenging the constitutionality of the initiative.

	18-10-2004 22:32									#213
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And then democrats introduce such measures in all southern states, florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and all western states. And if republicans oppose it in any state, we call them undemocratic, and then have a reason not to move in our blue states. That's how it works.

Hah! We defend by accusing the Democrats of being against States Rights, which is TRUE.

The measures don't pass in the Red states, but do pass in the Blue states, and the rest is history.

	18-10-2004 22:32									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Ned True. But typically referrenda are allowed by the State's constitution, not by the State Legislature. I am not sure how the particular Colorado issue got on the ballot.

State legislatures' powers are based on the state constitution-if the consititution says referendums can make law, there you go.

	18-10-2004 22:36									#215
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quote: Originally posted by GePap State legislatures' powers are based on the state constitution-if the consititution says referendums can make law, there you go.

Interesting argument. But I sincerely doubt the Supremes would uphold it. The US Constitution cannot be overridden by State constitutions.

	19-10-2004 00:01									#216
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The U.S. Constitution says that distribution of electoral votes is up to the states.

	19-10-2004 00:05									#217
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The U.S. Constitution says that distribution of electoral votes is up to the states.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress: but no Senator or Representative, or Person holding an Office of Trust or Profit under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector."

	19-10-2004 00:08									#218
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Yes, and the state legislature is the one body able to ammend the state constitution. Hence, if the State legislature writes into the state constitution the power to create or change state laws by referendums, then doing so was done in a manner laid down by the State legislature.

	19-10-2004 00:16									#219
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, and the state legislature is the one body able to ammend the state constitution. Hence, if the State legislature writes into the state constitution the power to create or change state laws by referendums, then doing so was done in a manner laid down by the State legislature.

Funny.

I repeat, State Constitutions cannot direct a how the state allocates electors, nor can a referendum authorized by the State Constitution. I do agree, however, that had the Legislature authorized the referendum, that would be OK.

	19-10-2004 00:18									#220
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The Constitution says the State legislature gets to decide. The state legislature has the power to set how state laws are made and can change the constitution-hence the State legislature can do with its own power as it whishes-if that means giving it to the people by ballot measure, then fine.

	19-10-2004 00:19									#221
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You raise a valid point, and a strict interpretation of the Constitution might lead to the Colorado initiative being tossed out. I think, however, that given that the legistlatures write the constitutions and specify their manner of approval, they can be considered acts of the legislature.

	19-10-2004 00:19									#222
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quote: State Constitutions cannot direct a how the state allocates electors

Um... yes they can. Who do you think votes for changing the State Constitution? In every state, it is the Legislature at the forefront. Which makes it no different than the legislature's voting for the referendum as a law.

I know of no state which allows a change in Constitution without consulting the legislature first.

	19-10-2004 00:22									#223
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Che, even if this were true, I hardly think the Supremes would conclude that by creating a constitutional process for a people's referendum generally means that the State Legislature had delegated to the people the right to determine how the electors should be apportioned. That is a major stretch.

	19-10-2004 00:22									#224
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara You raise a valid point, and a strict interpretation of the Constitution might lead to the Colorado initiative being tossed out. I think, however, that given that the legistlatures write the constitutions and specify their manner of approval, they can be considered acts of the legislature.

Ah, NO, a stupid view of the Constitution would- the State legislature in Colorado obviously had the power to nix this referensum-it did not-it surrendered its power. That was their decision.

	19-10-2004 00:23									#225
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Ah, NO, a stupid view of the Constitution would- the State legislature in Colorado obviously had the power to nix this referensum-it did not-it surrendered its power. That was their decision.

Oh what a stretch this is.

	19-10-2004 00:24									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, even if this were true, I hardly think the Supremes would conclude that by creating a constitutional process for a people's referendum generally means that the State Legislature had delegated to the people the right to determine how the electors should be apportioned. That is a major stretch.

Actually that is common sense-the legislature had eveyr right to surrender its power. Again, the constitution says the state legislature decides-if the state legislature surrenders its power to the people, the state legislature decided.

	19-10-2004 00:26									#227
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Che, even if this were true, I hardly think the Supremes would conclude that by creating a constitutional process for a people's referendum generally means that the State Legislature had delegated to the people the right to determine how the electors should be apportioned.

They might.

	19-10-2004 00:28									#228
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quote: I hardly think the Supremes would conclude that by creating a constitutional process for a people's referendum generally means that the State Legislature had delegated to the people the right to determine how the electors should be apportioned. That is a major stretch.

No, that's no stretch at all. The Legislature has decided, by allowing a referendum how the electors shall be divided (if at all). As the clause says 'in a manner the legislature shall direct'. It doesn't say the legislature must vote on the issue, it says the legislature can DIRECT the process for seperating electoral votes.

Besides, the SCOTUS would probably not be able to decide this anyway, since I couldn't see a person having standing to challenge it unless we have another 2000 election debacle.

	19-10-2004 00:31									#229
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt I still don't see why a simple 'one vote from one American counts as one vote for one candidate' system is opposed by PLATO and others, unless there were purely partisan political reasons for it (eg one side would always win, or something).

I feel, as did the founding fathers, that large population centers should not be able to dominate national politics.

	19-10-2004 00:37									#230
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I feel, as did the founding fathers, that large population centers should not be able to dominate national politics.

PLATO and other don't like democracy... one person, one vote... may the best candidate win.

	19-10-2004 00:40									#231
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I feel, as did the founding fathers, that large population centers should not be able to dominate national politics.

Why should a bunch of hicks who don't know enough to move someplace with jobs get to dominate?

	19-10-2004 00:44									#232
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Why should a bunch of hicks who don't know enough to move someplace with jobs get to dominate?

This statement shows why those from population centers shouldn't dominate national thought.

Ye-Haw.

	19-10-2004 00:49									#233
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quote: Originally posted by Sava PLATO and other don't like democracy... one person, one vote... may the best candidate win.

When Jerry Springer becomes a highly rated TV show, I think we should ALL question democracy .

	19-10-2004 00:51									#234
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui When Jerry Springer becomes a highly rated TV show, I think we should ALL question democracy .

One of the few comments made by a conservative that actually made me stop and question socialism was a comment by David Horowitz. "You can't build socialism with the people who go on Jerry Springer."

	19-10-2004 00:53									#235
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Sometimes I fear for the masses of this country. You know what I'm talking about, che, go a little bit out of our Southern cities (or even in them ) and you are in the scary boonies!

Hell, I'm sure you can find plenty out there that think that Matthew Shephard 'deserved it'!!

	19-10-2004 01:07									#236
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO I feel, as did the founding fathers, that large population centers should not be able to dominate national politics.

There were no large population centers when the Foudning Fathers were around, with the country being 95% rural- and given that in most states you had to be a landed gentleman to vote, this was hardly an issue.

The Founding Fathers expected the state legislatures to have more direct say in chosing electors, much like they used to chose senators.

But most legislatures have surrendered their powers by now-to the voters themselves.

	19-10-2004 01:07									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Sava PLATO and other don't like democracy... one person, one vote... may the best candidate win.

Funny you should say that. The founding fathers were much more into representation than democracy. I believe that our States should be fully democratic, but that our Union should be representative.

	19-10-2004 01:09									#238
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Funny you should say that. The founding fathers were much more into representation than democracy. I believe that our States should be fully democratic, but that our Union should be representative.

	19-10-2004 01:09									#239
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There were no large population centers when the Foudning Fathers were around, with the country being 95% rural- and given that in most states you had to be a landed gentleman to vote, this was hardly an issue.

Boston, Philadelphia, and New York were all population centers at the time. The Southern States were worried about these centers being able to dominate them politically...and they still are.

	19-10-2004 01:10									#240
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO The founding fathers . . .

don't live here anymore.