18-10-2004 06:13									#151
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident no way. each state has it's own culture. It makes it a joy to travel accross america to see all of them. If they are all the same, what's the point of seeing them?

1) This is rapidly becoming completely false in any way.

2) Various regions have their own culture, but to say that there are 50 distinct state cultures is BS.

3) The differences are a lot more rural vs urban than state to state. States contain both big cities and rural areas.

4) This wouldn't get rid of any different cultures.

	18-10-2004 06:14									#152
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Just whored itself to criminal gangs.

never

	18-10-2004 06:15									#153
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Where do you live again?

	18-10-2004 06:15									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo How, exactly, does the electoral college have anything to do with de-centralized governance?

?

Regional rights and issues should be considered when electing an executive. This is not de-centralization of the federal gov't but rather regional representation in its formation.

	18-10-2004 06:17									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Dissident no way. each state has it's own culture. It makes it a joy to travel accross america to see all of them. If they are all the same, what's the point of seeing them? 1) This is rapidly becoming completely false in any way. 2) Various regions have their own culture, but to say that there are 50 distinct state cultures is BS. 3) The differences are a lot more rural vs urban than state to state. States contain both big cities and rural areas. 4) This wouldn't get rid of any different cultures.

Completely wrong. The South, which is arguably the most homogenious region in the country, varies greatly (and proudly I might add) from state to state. There is definiately a difference in culture among the states.

	18-10-2004 06:18									#156
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO This has always been the point. Some things at the local level that are important vary from state to state.

No, it hasn't. The original point was because the States were independent and sovereign entities, and they would no more agree to a direct democracy than we would allow population-based representation on the UNSC. China would dictate everything. The point was not for states to be, as they are (or at least should be) now, just administrative districts to take care of local isssues like schools, zoning, etc. that just can't be handled effectively on the federal level. We don't have some sacrosanct "county's rights", why should we hold "state's rights" any more sacred? They are a means to an end, that's all.

	18-10-2004 06:18									#157
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especially Mississippi

I would agree states like Deleware don't have much culture (though people from that state would probably disagree). I don't think it's that different from maryland.

But in the west side of the country. States like Nevada are very different from Idaho, Utah, Oregon, California, and Arizona.

	18-10-2004 06:20									#158
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Completely wrong. The South, which is arguably the most homogenious region in the country, varies greatly (and proudly I might add) from state to state. There is definiately a difference in culture among the states.

Maybe, but to argue that each and every state is distinct nowadays is ridiculous. Especially given that the important differences (wrt politics) are often urban vs rural things.

	18-10-2004 06:23									#159
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quote: ? Regional rights and issues should be considered when electing an executive. This is not de-centralization of the federal gov't but rather regional representation in its formation.

How does the electoral college contribute to the consideration of regional issues in the election of the President, when everyone but a small portion of the country gets ignored in the campaign?

	18-10-2004 06:23									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker why should we hold "state's rights" any more sacred?

We tend to be a little overprotective of the Bill of Rights.

	18-10-2004 06:31									#161
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: ? Regional rights and issues should be considered when electing an executive. This is not de-centralization of the federal gov't but rather regional representation in its formation. How does the electoral college contribute to the consideration of regional issues in the election of the President, when everyone but a small portion of the country gets ignored in the campaign?

These areas are "ignored" because they are decided for the most part.

	18-10-2004 06:32									#162
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State issues exist only in swing states?

	18-10-2004 06:33									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo State issues exist only in swing states?

yes.

serves the other states right for being so narrow in their population base.

	18-10-2004 06:37									#164
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Ignorant swing staters making crappy generalizations about red/blue staters.

	18-10-2004 06:37									#165
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo State issues exist only in swing states?

I think you are deliberately trying to cloud the argument while understanding the point. Nice troll though.

	18-10-2004 06:38									#166
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I think you have no argument, and are just trying to justify bias towards small states in the EC.

	18-10-2004 06:40									#167
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I like Ramo's use of the tongue smilie better than Plato's.


tongue smilie score:

Plato: 5

Ramo: 7.3

	18-10-2004 06:42									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Ignorant swing staters making crappy generalizations about red/blue staters.

hey now, my state has spent many, many years as a conservative republican state. Politicians used to never come to my state.

It's nice to recieve the extra attention.

	18-10-2004 06:44									#169
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Shrub used to live in Austin, and I can't remember the last time he came here. I'll never be able to throw some dung at him.

	18-10-2004 06:45									#170
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun I like Ramo's use of the tongue smilie better than Plato's. tongue smilie score: Plato: 5 Ramo: 7.3

At least I got a 5 on the Mr. Fun Scale.


Ramo, All states have regional issues. The EC exists in order that the issues of the small state may be taken into account in the choosing of a national executive. Wheater or not a state is a "swing state" has no bearing on this fact. The fact that many states are decidedly for or against one particular candidate has no bearing on the national campaign other than allowing candidates to cocentrate on areas where there is still indecision on the issue. The EC serves a valuable purpose in giving every region representation in choosing a chief executive.

	18-10-2004 06:46									#171
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The Electoral College does nothing to protect States rights anymore- if the electors were NOT tied to the results of a popular election by the state citizens, then yes, the EC would help protect states rights- but since that is no longer true, the EC serves no purpose in this regard.

	18-10-2004 06:51									#172
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The Electoral College does nothing to protect States rights anymore- if the electors were NOT tied to the results of a popular election by the state citizens, then yes, the EC would help protect states rights- but since that is no longer true, the EC serves no purpose in this regard.

While there may be some truth in this statement, I am shocked by your statement that the voters cannot determine the best interest of their particular state.

	18-10-2004 07:01									#173
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO While there may be some truth in this statement, I am shocked by your statement that the voters cannot determine the best interest of their particular state.

Bull. Individuals vote based on their OWN INDIVIDUAL INTERESTS AND VALUES. A voter is austin is not voting base don what ranchers in east texas need, nor are citrus growers in the valley voting with the interests of San Francisco in heart, nor a guy in Brooklyn thinking about the needs of dairy farmers in Syracuse.

In essence all the EC does now is disfranshise huge blocks of voters. Essentially a republican in NY or a democrat is MIssissippi might as well not even show up to vote-their vote won't count.

	18-10-2004 07:03									#174
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quote: Ramo, All states have regional issues. The EC exists in order that the issues of the small state may be taken into account in the choosing of a national executive.

Why should the issues of small states have precedence out of proportion to their population over the issues of large states?

quote: Wheater or not a state is a "swing state" has no bearing on this fact.

It has every bearing on this. When was the last time the issues of Rhode Island or Montana come up in the Presidential Campaign?

quote: The fact that many states are decidedly for or against one particular candidate has no bearing on the national campaign other than allowing candidates to cocentrate on areas where there is still indecision on the issue.

There's indecision everywhere. The election is simply not very close everywhere.

quote: The EC serves a valuable purpose in giving every region representation in choosing a chief executive.

You mean, it serves a valuable purpose in giving small states disproportional clout and keeping the vast majority of the country out of the campaign?

	18-10-2004 07:03									#175
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Bull. Individuals vote based on their OWN INDIVIDUAL INTERESTS AND VALUES. A voter is austin is not voting base don what ranchers in east texas need, nor are citrus growers in the valley voting with the interests of San Francisco in heart, nor a guy in Brooklyn thinking about the needs of dairy farmers in Syracuse. In essence all the EC does now is disfranshise huge blocks of voters. Essentially a republican in NY or a democrat is MIssissippi might as well not even show up to vote-their vote won't count.

I'm inclinced to agree with you.

But I still say the system should stay, but electors should be required to split their votes based on the number of votes in a state. yes this includes third party candidates. It would make third party candidates slightly more viable.

	18-10-2004 09:30									#176
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quote: It seems that recently, states' rights is beginning to turn away from being a means to repress minority groups, and god forbid -- be used for real, constructive purposes.

I know you are biased against the states, but even these ignorant remarks are too much for you . When a majority were for slavery, it was Northern states who continually attempted to flaunt the law. And remember, the first talk of secession was actually from some northern states who were discussing it during the War of 1812.

When the federal government was being bad, there were always a state or two who had a position which we, in 2004, would think was better and who would act upon that position.

	18-10-2004 09:33									#177
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quote: And remember, the first talk of secession was actually from some northern states who were discussing it during the War of 1812.

WRONG AGAIN BUCKO!

quote: The term secession had been used as early as 1776. South Carolina threatened separation when the Continental Congress sought to tax all the colonies on the basis of a total population count that would include slaves.

source: http://college.hmco.com/history/rea...0_secession.htm

and don't forget the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions

	18-10-2004 09:37									#178
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Um... The 1776 'seperation' ISN'T the same as secession. You actually have to be part of a federal union before you can leave it. Being a co-revolutionary doesn't cut the mustard.

And the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions simply said the states can ignore federal laws it considered wrong. Nothing about leaving the group.

	18-10-2004 09:39									#179
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quote: And the Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions simply said the states can ignore federal laws it considered wrong. Nothing about leaving the group.

but by implication, if states can ignore federal laws, they effectively have seceeded. Those resolutions were the basis for Calhoun's whole post-1820's political career of sticking it to the federal gov't, which eventually caused him to support secession.

	18-10-2004 09:47									#180
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quote: if states can ignore federal laws, they effectively have seceeded.

Um... no. Not at all. Simply ignoring federal law does NOT mean you are leaving the union. Many states attempted stuff like that in the early days of the Republic until the SCOTUS told them they can't do that stuff.

As your link says:

quote: Calhoun had hoped that nullification was a proper, constitutional alternative to disunion

Nullification was supposed to prevent secession, not be a part of it.