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mikepalomino
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Ugh...
I suppose I'm what you would call a n00b, but in someways that lable isn't appropriate.
I've been playing Civilization since the original one came out back in 1991. God knows I played that game to death. I even played it's followup CivNet, as well as Civilization II. I never played on Emperor level, but I was always able to hold my own on the midlevel games.
Civ III is something totally different.
I don't get it.
I've studied a large amount of strategies on here. I've read FAQs, I've read posts. Nothing works.
If I play on Regent the game feels too easy, but if I move up to Monarch the game becomes an ulcer-inducing Chinese water torture.
First of all, I just don't understand why I consistantly fall behind technologically. Even with my tech level at 90 percent, I'm still the last to reach the next age.
Trade in this game seems to be a "broken" feature. At this point I prefer the old way of creating fleets of caravans and shipping 'em off. Trade in this game is non-existant because the AI Civs almost never have money.
Even then I doubt it would work because the AI seems to overvalue its commodities over yours.
...And speaking of the AI. It amazes me how the AI not only expands at an alarming rate, but also is able to research faster, and build wonders all at the same time. I thought it was said that this game doesn't cheat?
Finally, the one thing I would really like explained to me is: If there's no cheating involved, how is it that that AI seems to win a majority of its battles?
I have seen the AI take out my cities with one archer against two or three spearmen. ANd I have seen legions of my troops go against a sparsely defended city, only to fall one behind another. This happens with amazing regularity, and statistically speaking cannot be consistant with the mathematical combat model.
I'm about ready to give up, I'm tired of losing countless hours to this game. I'm hoping perhaps that the folks of Apolyton Forums can partake of their wisdom and maybe enlighten me. I really want to enjoy this game the way I used to enjoy its predecessor back in the day.
Thanks in advance.
Mike
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mikepalomino
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Trading Techs for techs is fine, but it doesn't make me money. I think 99.99 percent of the time, the other Civs never have gold in their treasury.
I quit a game just now where I had several French swordmen go up against Incan archers. I got owned. If you ask me the game is rigged to give the AI an advantage in combat.
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Modo44
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in western Poland
Jul 2004
time: 06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
Trading Techs for techs is fine, but it doesn't make me money. I think 99.99 percent of the time, the other Civs never have gold in their treasury. |
The point is to sell one technology for many other techs. Learn which ones the AI won't be likely to research and get them. Sell them for any other techs you might have missed. For starters, stop listening to the science advisor, he's your doom.
The AI won't have money before they switch out of despotism. Also, they spend a lot when they are at war.
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
I quit a game just now where I had several French swordmen go up against Incan archers. I got owned. If you ask me the game is rigged to give the AI an advantage in combat. |
No, it isn't.
First, for small numbers, statistics don't work. If you have a 1/10 chace of winning, you may still be in for a loss at the 10th try. Try 100 games with each fight repeated 100 times over and _then_ count the results. You might find them correct. 
Second, you probably remember yor losses much more than the wins. You might view it as normal when you win against odds 3 times straight (happens a lot with Archers vs Spearmen...), right? Well it isn't normall, you just don't mind winning and you won't think much of it. But you will curse the living hell out of the game after a single Sword dies attacking a Spearman, right? Well, that happens a lot and nothing is wrong with that result. So, stop whining and get over it. Shdt happens and this is just a game. 
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Tarquinius
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I think you were just unlucky with your battles. Try it again and you will probably do better.
You should really look at the thread "the Regent-Monarch jump", there are a few useful tips there.
The advice I want to give you:
When you start at a new level (Monarch in your case) restart a few times until you get a nice starting position (For example one or two cattle + a river on grassland).
Take a Civ whose traits and Unique unit you like. Build an early Granary in your capital and/or 2nd city. You will see that you will easily outexpand and outresearch the AI. Just send out a few scouts/warriors to find the AI early.
Don't bother with defensive units like spearmen. You should either build very little military in the beginning of the game (only enough to fight barbarians and some warriors for Military Police Duties) or build up an attack force consisting offensive units and smash your neighbour(s)!
Try again with these things in mind and you will do much better. Especially the Granary is a golden tip, my game really improved when I started using them!
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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
First of all, I just don't understand why I consistantly fall behind technologically. Even with my tech level at 90 percent, I'm still the last to reach the next age. |
Considering the AI gets 9/10 costs for stuff - pop growth, libs, etc - it's not surprising if you're behind in reaching the mideval era.
If you're behind in getting to the Ind, then yeah, there probably is a better way for you to set up a research machine. 
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
Trade in this game seems to be a "broken" feature. At this point I prefer the old way of creating fleets of caravans and shipping 'em off. Trade in this game is non-existant because the AI Civs almost never have money.
Even then I doubt it would work because the AI seems to overvalue its commodities over yours. |
The AI does price its luxuries insanely high once you have a fair amount of luxes already. This is because it judges the price based on how many happy faces you would get from the luxury, not factoring in how badly you need it or if you're offering a luxury in return. Whether you want to trade at these insane prices is up to you.
But rememeber, it works both ways. If an AI has a large empire with a lot of markets, you can get a lot out of it for luxes if it has the money.
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
...And speaking of the AI. It amazes me how the AI not only expands at an alarming rate, but also is able to research faster, and build wonders all at the same time. I thought it was said that this game doesn't cheat? |
It does cheat at Monarch. (Regent is the level playing field; below Regent, the AI has higher costs than you, and above it, the AI has lower costs than you.) The biggest bonus is 9/10 cost for building stuff and for city growth. You also get a small penalty on your research costs.
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
Finally, the one thing I would really like explained to me is: If there's no cheating involved, how is it that that AI seems to win a majority of its battles? |
Are you sure you understand the combat defensive bonii?
Some important ones:
+10% if defender is on flat terrain (tundra, grass, plains, desert)
+25% if attacker crosses a river
+25% if defender is fortified
+... something if the defender is in jungle or forest. I forget how much.
+50% if defender is on a hill
+100% if defender is on a mountain
+50% if defender is in a town with walls, or in a city (city=size 7-12)
+100% if defender is in a metropolis (size 13+)
Stack enough of these and a 20-shield spearman can easily face a 70-shield Knight or 40-shield Med Infantry on even ground. A fortified spearman inside a walled town, with the attacker crossing the river, will be at 4 defense. A fortified spearman on a mountain will be stronger than a knight, at 4.5 defense.
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
I have seen the AI take out my cities with one archer against two or three spearmen. |
If you have that lone archer outnumbered, how did it take your city? Did it attack over several turns?
Always counterattack. Don't build too many defensive units. Defensive units are there to take the attack when you can't destroy the approaching enemy stack in time (or when said stack is on defensive terrain like a mountain), and to protect your expensive offensive units from the AI's counterattack. Don't count on them to win your battles for you; you need to be able to take out AI troops on your own turn. Especially when the AI is attacking with mounted units that can retreat when wounded; you need to have your own mounts to chase those wounded AI units down and destroy them while they're at a disadvantage.
quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
ANd I have seen legions of my troops go against a sparsely defended city, only to fall one behind another. This happens with amazing regularity, and statistically speaking cannot be consistant with the mathematical combat model. |
What was the situation like? Was the city on a hill? Did it have walls or was it size 7 and up? If the answer to both of those is yes, and you've been attack spears with swords, the odds were against you. Never underestimate the power of defensive bonii.
If you did have the statistical advantage... yes, it is skewed sometimes. The RNG would not be producing a truly random pattern if it did not happen to produce streaks sometime. Just plan your war builds with more than enough troops to win it with average combat results, and smile when the streak is to your advantage.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:21
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Excellent responses all around (except Sir Ralph!!  ).
Mike, there are loads of threads around here that address your basic game... terrain improvement, city spacing, early game management of neighboring civs, etc. And, yes, the best thing you can do is post some saves: 4000BC, 1000BC, and 10BC, and we will chime in with some concrete advice that will do wonders for your play.
But on top of that, I've just come with a new paradigm for play strategy, that I think I will suggest to you as the first... this builds on a conceptual thread I once wrote, the Seven Pillars, and the starting point is, all due credit given, with Arrian:
I ask you to do something very simple: Gain six luxuries.
That's all. I think there might be simple, overaching goals like that, that cascade into all of the other things one needs to do to successfully prosecute a given game.
Show us some saves, but also start playing that way... that's the first one that comes to mind, six lux, but I am sure others will chime in with more!
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
First of all, I just don't understand why I consistantly fall behind technologically. Even with my tech level at 90 percent, I'm still the last to reach the next age.
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Setting the Science slider at 90% is no guarantee that you be competitive technologically. You need a good economy for that.
As a simple example, imagine you produce 100 Commerce per turn, of which you get 90 Beakers from your 90% Science rate. I produce 150 Commerce per turn, meaning I get 145 Beakers. I could put my Science slider as low as 60% and still research techs as fast as you.
As you can see, a major factor in determining how fast you research is how much Commerce you're generating. You get Commerce by working tiles with Roads on them, or coastal tiles. You get more Commerce by working more tiles like these, that is, by having a lot of population, and also by being in a Republic or Democracy.
Other factors affect the speed of your technological advancement, like Libraries.
Once you reach Monarch, however, this is not enough. You really do need to participate in the tech trading game in order to keep up or gain the lead. There are numerous thread out there on how to do this, and I suggest you read as many as you can. It's knowledge that is straightforwardly implemented in your games.
The relationship between a strong economy for research and the tech trading game is that the former provides the means by which you can engage in the latter.
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Theseus
Excellent responses all around (except Sir Ralph!! ).
Mike, there are loads of threads around here that address your basic game... terrain improvement, city spacing, early game management of neighboring civs, etc. And, yes, the best thing you can do is post some saves: 4000BC, 1000BC, and 10BC, and we will chime in with some concrete advice that will do wonders for your play.
But on top of that, I've just come with a new paradigm for play strategy, that I think I will suggest to you as the first... this builds on a conceptual thread I once wrote, the Seven Pillars, and the starting point is, all due credit given, with Arrian:
I ask you to do something very simple: Gain six luxuries.
That's all. I think there might be simple, overarching goals like that, that cascade into all of the other things one needs to do to successfully prosecute a given game.
Show us some saves, but also start playing that way... that's the first one that comes to mind, six lux, but I am sure others will chime in with more! |
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mikepalomino
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Thanks everyone for the replies.
I will definately heed your advice and I will try to follow it the next couple of times I play.
Here are a few thoughts:
I do understand the defensive bonuses work, for those who thought perhaps I wasn't aware. I must issue a correction on something I said, I said I had an archer take a town of mine with several spearman. I meant to say I had a town with a Veteran spearman in it, and it lost to a lone archer. He was fortified in town, and the town was built on a hill, and the archer won out.
While a victory for the attacker is certainly a possibility, it just seems to me that the computer wins a majority of the battles even when I'm at a territorial advantage.
Again, I'm old school when it comes to Civ. I almost miss the days when a lone phalanx at the top of a hill could literally fight off legions of armies.
It just seems that when I initiate combat, my combats are resolved seemingly by a different set of rules than the ones the computer goes by. Statistically speaking.
What I'll do is I'll start to take count of my battles and the ones I win and lose, and the circumstances involved, and let you guys know.
I'll continue to read the forums too to see what I can learn.
All I want really is to give the PC competition, and to hold my own. So many times I get to the Industrial age, and the computer is literally pumping out one Wonder after another, and I'm struggling to just keep up.
Thanks again for everyone's comments!
Mike
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by mikepalomino
Thanks everyone for the replies.
I do understand the defensive bonuses work, for those who thought perhaps I wasn't aware. I must issue a correction on something I said, I said I had an archer take a town of mine with several spearman. I meant to say I had a town with a Veteran spearman in it, and it lost to a lone archer. He was fortified in town, and the town was built on a hill, and the archer won out.
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If you've come to CivIII from CivII, you must first learn to forget your CivII combat biases. One of the things that made CivII insanely easy was that combat was just too depressingly predictable. It made protecting your empire ludicrously simple. As others have said, you don't ever want to depend on 1 lone unit defending against 1 attacker.
OTOH, losing a city isn't always the huge disaster it was in CivII, especially if the city is small or new. The winner gets very little money, no tech, a resistance population that won't work and just 9 tiles of land.
quote:
While a victory for the attacker is certainly a possibility, it just seems to me that the computer wins a majority of the battles even when I'm at a territorial advantage. |
Nope. It's all your imagination. Really it is. I used to think this too, however last night I had a lone Cavalry survive 2 attacks from Knights and 1 from an Archer but you won't see me complaining or reloading!
quote:
Again, I'm old school when it comes to Civ. I almost miss the days when a lone phalanx at the top of a hill could literally fight off legions of armies. |
Well, you know where CivII is if you want that. Seriously though, didn't you find it a trifle unfair that the AI would expend literally hundreds of shields on a single 20 shield Phalanx? And that's just one of many exploits that the human can use to dominiate the AI in CivII (don't get me started on Diplomats and Spies!).
quote:
I'll continue to read the forums too to see what I can learn. |
Yes! I too came from CivII and was ready to chuck the game out the window because I sucked so bad at it. Then I came here and unlearned many of my "bad" CivII behaviors. I still only play on Emporer and continue to find the game a good challenge.
quote:
All I want really is to give the PC competition, and to hold my own. So many times I get to the Industrial age, and the computer is literally pumping out one Wonder after another, and I'm struggling to just keep up. |
Search the forums for advice on pre-building and tech trading.
Good luck!
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gunkulator
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Do you mean the terrain or fortified bonus? You and the AI always get a terrain bonus. But AFAIK, the AI does not get the fortify bonus if it did not fortify.
If someone knows differently, please tell me.
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:21
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mikepalomino if you find you are not able to build wonders or keep up in tech research, it is a certainty that it is a function of
how the empire was built.
Every time I have seen this complaint, it is an empire that has sparsely build cities. The cities are far apart, have few tiles with roads and not many mines.
Often the workers are wasting turns working on hills and mountain tiles that are not going to be worked for some time.
One common trait is that they have too few workers and do not ensure that citizens are working the correct tiles and those tiles have all the improvements that they should.
You tend to see too many irrigated tile, often thoses cities are making way too much food and are not building settlers or workers.
One other thing I have seen in these games many times is that, they will have citizens as entertainers and not use the lux slider.
Now it is true that you can get a very poor start location and not be able to prosper, but the ones I see are not due to bad land, it is bad management of their land.
As to combat, after years of CivIII, you just come to understand that crap happens. You just build enough troops to do the job or come with superior units.
Having one spear to defend against any attacker is a very very risky proposition. I would not want to rely on even a pike in that spot.
You want to have more units than they attacker to be safe. If you have many bombardment units to back yours, it is much better.
If you have have cities at no more than CxxC, you can send another unit over to back up that spear. You saw the archer coming in time. If you are CxxxC or even more tiles apart, it will be hard to get help in time.
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Shr3dZ
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quote:
Originally posted by Modo44
The point is to sell one technology for many other techs. Learn which ones the AI won't be likely to research and get them. |
How about you just tell us which ones the AI doesnt go for? Ive been playing a long time and I still dont know. I usually streak to philo, grab liter and finish the GL. From what Ive read, ppl perfer going for map making for free... why? just b/c it takes 3 extra turns to research? or do ppl actually like the lighthuose? hmm
Another thing, you mention selling one tech for multiple techs, how the hell can anyone do that unless its obvious like monarchy for wheel and warrior code.  trading to me seems fairly boring, the AI always think THEIR stuff is WAY better then MY stuff. Its always 2 of my luxuries for 1 or even .75 of theirs, i might have to throw in some coin too.
I agree with the thread starter that sometimes the AI get way too lucky with usually a couple attacks in a row.
Heres the link to the 'jump' thread. If you do the things Ive listed you should have the lead in tech,money etc in no time:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=123812
Last edited by Shr3dZ on 18-10-2004 at 23:27
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vmxa1
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Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:21
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Just a guess, but maybe the reason to select Map is due to game settings.
If you are playing a level like Emp and have lots of water, you may go for Map. The AI will want it bad and will not be in a rush to get Lit. So you still have a shot at Lit and can trade Map.
The GL is not so useful in a game where you do not expect to be behind the AI in tech. The higher the level, the more useful it is and at low levels, it can do nothing for you. Also in an island map, you won't have contacts, so you could not gain tech from the GL, until later.
You will still need to research hard as no one will have any tech to trade.
If you are contacting the civs routinely, you can see what they are researching and see the patterns. You can use the knowledge of the beaker cost to detect break throughs. With all of those things, you soon have an idea of what they are doing.
You also see the AI loves to head for Map and Facism among other techs.
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gunkulator
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quote:
Originally posted by Shr3dZ
Another thing, you mention selling one tech for multiple techs, how the hell can anyone do that unless its obvious like monarchy for wheel and warrior code. |
Let's say you discover Literature. You contact the Persians and trade Literature for Iron Working. *On the Same Turn* you contact the Babylonians and trade Literature for Polytheism. Also on the same turn, you contact the Americans and trade Literature for Horseback Riding. Viola! You just traded 1 tech for 3. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Sure your tech was a better tech than any one of them, but it surely was worth 3 lower level techs.
A couple points: You need to make contact with as many civs as possible as early as possible. You want to do all the trading during your turn (when you initiate contact) and on the same turn. That way the AI won't have a chance to trade techs amongst themselves before you get in on the deal.
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Shr3dZ
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Doh, good points about trading 1 tech for multiples. Yea, I truely should do that more often. And now it becomes more clear why you would want to contact as many civs as possible. I think I got into the ahbit of not doing this b/c most of the time Im behind in tech, and trading just isnt an option...
quote:
The GL is not so useful in a game where you do not expect to be behind the AI in tech. |
The only exception I can think of is that you gain so much money while your tech is at 0%, and then upgrading all spearman at once can easily be afforded.
quote:
Also in an island map, you won't have contacts, so you could not gain tech from the GL, until later. |
This reminds me of one time (at band camp) I had VERY limited contact with other civs, maybe 1 or 2... anyways, the rest of the civs had already learned a couple techs past edu-maction and then what happened was I traded for contact with a new civ, and from them i traded for contact with another new civ, i did that like 6 times, then on the next turn I learned all the techs up to and even beyond education! i think i got chemisty and printing and something else... kinda cool ~  my point was that even if you have limited contact, the GL can still be useful b/c it doesnt expire until YOU have learned education (possible not true anymore with the new patches). 
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Theseus
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The warmonger formerly known as rpodos. Gathering Storm! Apolyton Spirit!!
Apr 2002
time: 00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Solomwi
Beautiful, T. The more I think about it, the more its sheer beauty comes through. Setting a six-luxury goal absolutely affects every facet of gameplay, from early expansion to when to fight to keeping infrastructure up with expansion.
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Thanks for noticing, Solomonwi.
The more I think about it, as well, the more I think that simple overarching goals like this might be great game teaching tools, applicable to so many different things. Notice, for instance, that I said "gain"... that might mean trade, just as well as territorial acquisition. Thus, the concept is applicable across so many different game strats (e.g., warmonger, builder, OCC, 5CC, etc.), on top of the impacts in terms of economic and military development.
I'm really pumped by the idea of considering the game from this kind of perspective, and teaching it to newer players... go beyond mechanics, tactics, and even game-specific strategy, and get to the 'backwards logical thinking' of "If I want to accomplish X and Y and Z, what are my A and B and C first??!!" 
To give further credit where it's due, I'd also like to thank (in perhaps date order) Velociryx, Aeson, Dominae, Catt, nbarclay, vmxa1, Trip, and Fried-Psitalon, ALL, and among many others, for helping me over time continue think about the metagame this way.
(ps: And I hope that we'll always have vxma1 and others around to walk people through the basics!!  )
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mikepalomino
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Hey folks,
Thanks again for all the great advice. Here's an update:
I started a game with default map settings, Monarch, with four random civs. I chose the French (Vive La France!)
Well I have to say the one tip that really came in handy was about roads and over-irrigation. I realize now that I've been over-irrigating my tiles, even grasslands. Furthermore, I was wasting valuable time mining mountains in the early stages.
As soon as I focused my work on building roads, and occassionally some irrigation for towns on or near desert squares, I began to notice that the gap between the AI and I was narrowed.
The game was fairly successful, but next time I'll put one more AI. I shared one continent with the Mongols and the Celts, and on the other main continent were the Japanese and the Portugese. The Portugese were wiped out by the 1300s, and Japan basically became the dominant civ.
Unfortunately, by the time the 1900s rolled around the Japanese must have won culturally because I was given a "You have Suffered a Humiliating Cultural Defeat" message, and the game was over.
What I liked about this game was that I was able to hold my own even if I was slightly behind the curve.
Still, I either dropped the ball on Wonders, or I need to make a stronger effort to beat the AI in building them. I didn't build one wonder in the entire game, with the exception of small wonders like The Pentagon, Wall Street, and the Military Academy.
I suppose I should consider myself fortunate too because I was positioned in an area that had abundant resources such as Iron, horses, rubber, and salt peter.
Over all though the best game I've had at this level.
Thanks again everyone.
Mike
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Shr3dZ
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Glad to hear it Mike, same thing happened to me last week or so... all I had to do was read some of the key ideas/strategies and it changed my game forever.
Like you, I no longer waste time on mountains and hills early, and I irrigate a whole lot less overall.
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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:21
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With regard to tile improvements, my goal tends to be to have the tiles I'm actually going to be working improved just before I'm ready to start working them. (In the very early stages while I still just have one worker, I often fall a bit behind, but I try to balance my number of workers against my growth so that most of the time my workers can keep up.) Improving tiles I won't be working in the near future - other than building roads between cities - is a waste of workers' time that could be spent better doing other things, while working unimproved tiles carries a significant cost in lost potential for food, shields, and/or commerce.
A good rule of thumb for tile improvements is that every plains tile should be roaded and irrigated and every grassland tile should be roaded and mined. There are cases where irrigating grasslands is useful to work extra hills and/or mountains (or forests if you leave any unchopped) or where mining plains is useful to balance out a food surplus to get more production (especially once cities reach size 12), but if you normally follow the rule of thumb and only depart from it when you're clear on the reason, you should be in good shape.
You might also consider taking the time to micromanage which tiles your city laborers work in the early game, especially if your starting position has a food bonus. Under those conditions, a combination of good use of the luxury slider and managing laborers to focus more on food and less on production can pay enormous dividends.
Regarding the combat system, I think a lot of what's going on is an illusion based on tricks of memory. If you remember the times when unusual results worked against you more strongly and vividly than you do the times when unusual results worked in your favor, it's easy to get the feeling that the combat system is rigged. But the reality is that the system just has a relatively high degree of randomness, resulting in relatively large numbers of "abnormal" outcomes in both directions. Personally, for the most part, I like that randomness becaues it makes the game less predictable and hence a bit more challenging. Bad luck can be a bit frustrating at times, but overall, in my view, the good outweighs the bad.
Nathan
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17-10-2004 13:22
I'm just a chieftain player at the moment but I'm confident if you posted a savegame at 4000 BC and one at about 50 or 100 turns later along with screenshots, fellow players here will be more than happy to take a look and make suggestions.
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