10-11-2004 18:57									#331
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The Beloved Bears' defense will be put to the test against Tennessee this week, Indy after that.

We shall see.

	10-11-2004 19:03									#332
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It was only ONE game. No, it was ONE destruction! The dismantling of the Eagles was incredible and the BIG weakness of stopping the run was exposed... look for Green Bay to use that when they face off with Philly.

GB will get smacked down by us the same way we smacked them down in the playoffs last year.

The Eagles have one of the top defenses in the league. Our defensive ranking is deceptive - we give up most yards during garbage time after we have jumped to a big lead. We are #2 in points allowed. Steelers O-line had a huge size advantage over our D-line. They are the only team who can manhandle our defense in a game.

The only thing that was exposed about the Eagles was that we had yet another huge game where the coaching staff:

- failed to get the team mentally ready and
- failed to make adjustments to an opponents gameplan that was beating them.


Why do you hate Philly teams in all sports? You go out of your way to trash any Philly team.

	10-11-2004 19:21									#333
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Imran is contrarian by nature. It's his law school training.

	10-11-2004 19:27									#334
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I love it! I point out that someone's team isn't invincible and I get called a Philly hater!

I just love breaking rose colored glasses is all .

Btw, yards given up in garbage time will always be of the passing variety as teams try to catch up. They are never the running yards. But keep telling yourself your team has no weaknesses, the Steelers sure found none .

Oh, and if the team couldn't get mentally ready for a 6-1 team who just beat New England to stop their streak, then you have much bigger problems than just getting demolished last week.

	10-11-2004 19:47									#335
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I love it! I point out that someone's team isn't invincible and I get called a Philly hater! I just love breaking rose colored glasses is all . Btw, yards given up in garbage time will always be of the passing variety as teams try to catch up. They are never the running yards. But keep telling yourself your team has no weaknesses, the Steelers sure found none . Oh, and if the team couldn't get mentally ready for a 6-1 team who just beat New England to stop their streak, then you have much bigger problems than just getting demolished last week.

You arent called a Philly hater because "the team isn't invincivble" you are called a Philly hater because whenever you post something about a Philly team it is negative.

Garbage time can occur as early as the 3rd quarter if the team in the lead has completely dominated the opposition like the Eagles did their opponents earlier in the year. It was those early games where a lot of defensive yardage was given up. And I was talking about overall defensive rating not just defense against the run.

You are just trolling with your half-butt arguments. But that is normal for you.

	10-11-2004 20:10									#336
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I love it! Philly isn't invincible, so I'm a Philly hater who is trolling with my 'half-butt' argument, which *gasp* are based on stats and facts! Damn me and my stats! They are all biased against the Philly teams!



Go ahead, put me on your ignore list. And any fanboy that gets offended when I tell them their team isn't invincible can do the same .

	10-11-2004 23:11									#337
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Philly run defense ranking is worse than their overall ranking (27 vs. 19). They gave up 252 to Pittsburgh. If we discount that game, their average would put them around #14 (middle of the pack). Again, teams do not run when they fall behind by a lot.

NY and Green Bay could give Philadelphia trouble
In the playoffs - teams like
Atlanta and Seattle could also pose a problem.

	11-11-2004 09:22									#338
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quote: No, Yards Allowed are more important. You can give up more TDs because of an crappy offense (that gets intercepted at lot in their end). Yards shows you how a D is actually performing, discounting a crappy offense.

Points allowed only counts for actual defensive points allowed. BEsides, what does it matter if I give up 500 yards so long as I keep the team out of the end zone? Isn't that what a defense is supposed to do?

	11-11-2004 09:28									#339
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Indeed.

This is why I think points allowed is a better measure of a defense than yards allowed.

	11-11-2004 09:35									#340
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quote: Points allowed only counts for actual defensive points allowed.

And I said nothing different. If an offense gets an interception and the other team returns the INT to the 2 yard line, why should the D be penalized for that?

quote: what does it matter if I give up 500 yards so long as I keep the team out of the end zone? Isn't that what a defense is supposed to do?

Usually teams that give up more yards are worse at keeping people from scoring. However, points allowed is tainted, by bad offenses, which can leave the defenses in horrible field position to defend.

Two defenses which may be exactly the same can seem totally different in points allowed based on the offense. A team with a crappy offense may give up more points because of field position. While the same defense with a good offense looks much better in points allowed because the opposition has to drive 80 or 90 yards instead of 50 for a TD.

	11-11-2004 09:38									#341
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quote: However, points allowed is tainted, by bad offenses, which can leave the defenses in horrible field position to defend.

Still, the compression of the defense needs to be considered. Some yards are more valuable than others.

	11-11-2004 09:41									#342
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Perhaps, but yards are more defense based. Points allowed derive a LOT from the offensive performance of the team. And yards allowed can show you the weaknesses of the team. Points allowed tells you little about where the defensive weakness may lie.

Yards used in conjunction with YPA (Yards Per Attempt) tells you much more than how many points they gave up.

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 11-11-2004 at 09:48

	11-11-2004 10:23									#343
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 TO will dance on the star at midfield again Monday night.

And get his head ripped off by Roy Williams.

But the eagles will still kill the cowboys.

ACK!

	11-11-2004 18:16									#344
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quote: A team with a crappy offense may give up more points because of field position. While the same defense with a good offense looks much better in points allowed because the opposition has to drive 80 or 90 yards instead of 50 for a TD.

True dat. It's a synergy, with defense and special teams contributing to offense and vice versa. That's why football statistics are easily misinterpreted, and why it's the ultimate team sport.

	11-11-2004 18:24									#345
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Perhaps, but yards are more defense based. Points allowed derive a LOT from the offensive performance of the team. And yards allowed can show you the weaknesses of the team. Points allowed tells you little about where the defensive weakness may lie. Yards used in conjunction with YPA (Yards Per Attempt) tells you much more than how many points they gave up.

While what you say is true... garbage time can really effect total yards. So if you have a great offense, and can put the other team down big early, you may give up a lot of meaningless yards

While each of the defensive measures have value to look at it, you do have to look at them all in context.
The best defenses are the one that dominate the game... Like the steal curtain... or the Bears 85 team...
You don't need stats to know how great those defenses were

	12-11-2004 12:04									#346
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quote: So if you have a great offense, and can put the other team down big early, you may give up a lot of meaningless yards

That's why you look at YPA in passing (because no one really runs up the rushing yards when behind). That takes into account the number of passing attempts.

	12-11-2004 23:06									#347
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Even Any Reid admits their run defense really needs fixing. Lets see if Trotter et. al. can make a difference.

	13-11-2004 00:07									#348
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quote: That's why you look at YPA in passing (because no one really runs up the rushing yards when behind). That takes into account the number of passing attempts.

Imran,

Take the Colts' defense for example. They are something like 10th versus the run, but they were 28th last year and have lost personnel, not gained. How? The Colts are winning early in a lot of games, forcing people to pass. This explains a) Our good rushing stats and b) our poor pass stats. Now, I could say that the Colts have a top 10 rushing defense when they obviously don't (even though we have had teams try to run on us), but they have the worst pass defense in the league. Had our run defense been slightly leakier, our pass defense would have been just as good as in years past (around 8th).

See what I'm saying? When you have a good run defense, you give up more passing yards hence more total yards, but if you have a bad defense you give up less passing yards hence less total yards. Combine that into teams don't run when they're losing by 14+, then you have many meaningless yards.

	13-11-2004 01:56									#349
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quote: Take the Colts' defense for example. They are something like 10th versus the run, but they were 28th last year and have lost personnel, not gained. How? The Colts are winning early in a lot of games, forcing people to pass.

Colts Rushing YPA: 23rd
Colts Passing YPA: 30th

It would help to read my posts .

Btw, the Colts are 15th in Rushing Yards

quote: Had our run defense been slightly leakier, our pass defense would have been just as good as in years past (around 8th).

I'll look at last year. The Colts were 4th against the pass in yards, but had the 5th most passing attempts against, so the Passing YPA were 20th.

The RUN defense was 20th in rushing yards allowed and 24th in YPA.

So the Run defense isn't that much better this year, but their pass D is very much so.

quote: When you have a good run defense, you give up more passing yards hence more total yards, but if you have a bad defense you give up less passing yards hence less total yards.

That isn't borne out. The Steelers are #1 in rushing yards against, and are #2 in total yard against overall. The Redskins are #2 in rushing yards against, and #1 in total yards against.

Miami is last in rushing yards against, and yes they are 14th in total yards, but not because they give up less yards because of the rushing attack, but because their pass defense is so good. Miami's Passing YPA is 3rd in the league. OTOH, the Bengals who are 31st in rushing yards do not have the same passing defense and are 25th in total yards against.

The team with the worst defensive in yards allowed in the league are the New Orleans Saints, who are 30th in rushing yards allowed and 31st in passing yards allowed. They are 28th in Rushing YPA and 32 in Passing YPA.

---

Lets look at Points Scored:

Are you telling me that you consider the San Diego Chargers to be the best Offense in the league? And that the Falcons have a better offense than the Broncoes?

What about defense? Are you saying that the New York Giants have a better defense than the Pittsburgh Steelers? Are saying the Cardinals have a better defense than the Titans?

	13-11-2004 02:38									#350
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quote: Are you telling me that you consider the San Diego Chargers to be the best Offense in the league? And that the Falcons have a better offense than the Broncoes?

Points per game. Chargers have played nine games, and are only behind the Eagles, Vikings, Colts and Chiefs.

I'd put them in the top 5 for offense this year.

	13-11-2004 02:49									#351
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Would you put them ahead of Minnesota who has less points per game, but ~70 yards per game more (yes, San Diego has more points per game than Minnesota)? Personally I think Minnesota is a better offense than San Diego.

	13-11-2004 12:59									#352
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They are performing better than Minnesota at the moment because San Diego have a consistent ground game (not as many injuries and suspensions as Minny), and Drew Brees is on fire. But then, is the Patriots' defense worse than Green Bay's? I know who I'd rather have, but the NFL doesn't agree with me.

On the topic, take a look at the Aikman Efficiency Ratings: They take into account Points, YPA, Red Zone Efficiency, and First Downs:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/7871527

	13-11-2004 21:37									#353
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Well, if you assume that offense and defense are equally important, then summing the AEK provides the following team rankings:
Pittsburgh
Chargers
Colts
Patriots
Jets
Seahawks
Broncos
Eagles
Chiefs
Ravens
Packers
Vikings
Lions
Cardinals
Redskins
Bills
Giants
Panthers
Buccaneers
Bears
Browns
Falcons
Rams
Titans
Jaguars
Texans
Bengals
Saints
Cowboys
Dolphins
49ers
Raiders

Frankly, aside from the top1 and the bottom 3, I don't really agree.

	14-11-2004 01:15									#354
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I doubt they are. It's a bit silly to take them as a total team ranking, because it's all about efficiency. The Jags aren't a very efficient team (though they win close games, which is a sign of being inefficient), and it shows, but they are 5-3 because they win the close ones. They could easily be 2-6.

A lot of the teams who are ranked lower than their talent and record says they should be shows that they could just as easily be lucky in the close games, and those higher than record says could just be doing pretty well at the time being but everything hasn't gone there way.

And also, it seems to come back to the NFL mantra of defense winning championships: How many of those too low have a good defense, and too high have a good offense?

	14-11-2004 04:40									#355
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But the whole point of any rating or ranking system is to be predictive of the outcome should those teams meet next. If the AEKs need further adjustment, those should have already been incorporated into the AEKs.

	14-11-2004 04:43									#356
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quote: Dolphins 49ers Raiders

Yaaay!!!!

Niners aren't last!

	14-11-2004 05:16									#357
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That's not too shabby.

Super Chargers are second.

As for taking Minny over SD, I think that SD having a few more ppg is less important than the 70 yards gained.

But we'll see what happens after Green Bay / Minny. If Minnesota loses, I'll have to consider the Chargers in the top four for offense, behind only the Chiefs, Colts, and Eagles.

	14-11-2004 05:25									#358
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Since my Niners suk so bad I'll root for the Chargers this year. Mainly because they have sucked so bad in years pass.

	14-11-2004 19:58									#359
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Denise DeBartolo and John York should be stripped of their ownership. I want to see what Larry Ellison can do with a franchise.

	15-11-2004 02:46									#360
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BEARS WIN IN OVERTIME WITH A SAFETY!!