22-10-2004 01:55									#301
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I used to favor the Republicans because I thought they were for fiscal sanity.

I have since learnt that isn't true. Both parties are totally irresponsible with the proverbial purse strings.

Therefore, that becomes a near non-issue when I choose between candidates. Which leaves social issues (abortion/gay marriage/etc) and foreign policy.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 01:59									#302
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I used to favor the Republicans because I thought they were for fiscal sanity. I have since learnt that isn't true. Both parties are totally irresponsible with the proverbial purse strings. Therefore, that becomes a near non-issue when I choose between candidates. Which leaves social issues (abortion/gay marriage/etc) and foreign policy. -Arrian

Arrian, I guess repeating that unbalanced budgets during a recession are necessary will continuously be ingored. Right?

	22-10-2004 02:01									#303
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Yes, for this reason:

I do *not* mind some deficit spending during a recession. That's fine. SO LONG AS IT THEN GETS PAID BACK LATER, when the recession ends.

That, to my knowledge, has never happened.

Furthermore, this is HUGE deficit spending. Too much.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 02:04									#304
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Arrian Yes, for this reason: I do *not* mind some deficit spending during a recession. That's fine. SO LONG AS IT THEN GETS PAID BACK LATER, when the recession ends. That, to my knowledge, has never happened. Furthermore, this is HUGE deficit spending. Too much. -Arrian

The only question that should be answered on THAT score is whether it was necessary to get the economy out of a recession. Once out, the increased economic activity will reduce the deficity automatically.

	22-10-2004 02:06									#305
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes, well the other issue is exactly how one goes about deficit spending in a recession. Tax cuts, spending programs, both? What type of tax cuts? What type of spending programs? And so on and so forth.

I favor tax cuts, actually, but not the ones Bush did. I got $200 back. Wooptie ****in' do. Others made out like bandits. Hmm, who would that be? I wonder... oh yeah, really really rich people.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 02:09									#306
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: I think the Republican Party's move to provide basic medical coverage for all Americans is a step in the right direction.

And then you critique Kerry's plan for expanding medical coverage for all Americans? Ned, have you no shame?

quote: Steel tarriffs. I agree. But the Dems wanted more and did not want them removed when they were declared illegal. The tarriffs helped steelworkers, after all.

Not Clinton. Or else they wouldn't have been so low when Bush got in.

quote: The large deficit was necessary to pull the economy out of a near depression.

The recession was the smallest possible recession you can have! Simply 2 periods of negative growth. Aside from that? Positive growth! Near depression!

	22-10-2004 02:15									#307
	Put an end to popups!

Doesn't the whole theory of deficit spending your way out of a recession rest upon the notion of it being temporary? Last time I checked reducing the deficit isn't the same thing as eliminating it.

	22-10-2004 02:16									#308
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Doesn't the whole theory of deficit spending your way out of a recession rest upon the notion of it being temporary?

YES! And that is what has apparently been conveniently forgotten by the dolts who run this country.

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 02:36									#309
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Kontiki, I hate to go through this once again, but there does seem to be a strong correlation between budgets moving from deficit to surplus and the onset of recession. (Deficits add to demand. Surplusses subtract from it.) All this suggests is that budgets have a strong effect on the so-called business cycle, and that one should plan on a modest deficit and never plan on a surplus -- at least in the absence of significant inflation.

	22-10-2004 02:44									#310
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Arrian I used to favor the Republicans because I thought they were for fiscal sanity. I have since learnt that isn't true. Both parties are totally irresponsible with the proverbial purse strings. Therefore, that becomes a near non-issue when I choose between candidates. Which leaves social issues (abortion/gay marriage/etc) and foreign policy. -Arrian

There are individuals that can be trusted so be prepared to vote across party lines to get fiscal conservatives elected. Also if you want less spending then one way to get it is to force the two parties to share power. If one controls the executive and the other the legislative then there is a moderating influence since both of them most work together or nothing gets done.

	22-10-2004 02:47									#311
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ned Arrian, I guess repeating that unbalanced budgets during a recession are necessary will continuously be ingored. Right?

Bush keeps saying the recession ended two years ago but his budget keeps growing and growing and growing. Most of it isn't even related to military spending too; instead it goes to farm subsidies, the medicare drug benifet, and other descretionary spending.

	22-10-2004 03:05									#312
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Bush keeps saying the recession ended two years ago but his budget keeps growing and growing and growing. Most of it isn't even related to military spending too; instead it goes to farm subsidies, the medicare drug benifet, and other descretionary spending.

We began to come out of the recession last Spring, IIRC, just about the same time as the Bush tax cuts were enacted and were going into effect.

	22-10-2004 03:39									#313
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

April 2002 was when the recession officially ended. Yet two and a half years later we are in an even bigger deficit then during the recession. Only a small portion of the increase is going to the military so it's not the war.

The Republicans control all branches of government so there is no one else to blame.

	22-10-2004 03:42									#314
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's a nice article on the recession which lasted from March 2001 through April 2002 includes lots of economists using econo-techno-babel.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/econ...onomy_4-26.html

	22-10-2004 04:45									#315
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Oerdin, I think the stock market is a better indicator of what really was going on in the economy. Both the DOW and the NASDQ bottomed out in late 2002, and really began to rise in the spring of 2003.

	22-10-2004 04:45									#316
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

dow

Attachment: _dji.gif
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	22-10-2004 04:46									#317
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

NAS

Attachment: _ixic.gif
This has been downloaded 34 time(s).

	22-10-2004 08:03									#318
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I think the Republican Party's move to provide basic medical coverage for all Americans is a step in the right direction. And then you critique Kerry's plan for expanding medical coverage for all Americans? Ned, have you no shame? quote: Steel tarriffs. I agree. But the Dems wanted more and did not want them removed when they were declared illegal. The tarriffs helped steelworkers, after all. Not Clinton. Or else they wouldn't have been so low when Bush got in. quote: The large deficit was necessary to pull the economy out of a near depression. The recession was the smallest possible recession you can have! Simply 2 periods of negative growth. Aside from that? Positive growth! Near depression!

Here's a recap for you -- Ned put you on Ignore, remember?

	22-10-2004 08:28									#319
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I do it for everyone else to show how easily Ned can be ripped apart .

	22-10-2004 08:41									#320
	Got spare money?

Does that really need a demonstration?

	22-10-2004 08:48									#321
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well it never gets old .

	22-10-2004 11:29									#322
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

@ Imran



Oh -- and because I quoted you, Ned gets to see it anyway so we get on his nerves that way as well.

	22-10-2004 22:34									#323
	Support Apolyton

Mr. Fun, pass this on to Imran if you might, but I favor health care for all. I do not favor a federal takeover for those who already have health care, as that is just an income transfer mechanism. The concern I had was that Kerry's plan did not include the working poor and unemployed. It does. So I am satisfied. However, I fail to see any need to provide 1-2k per years subsidies for the vast majority of Americans who already have health care now thru work. This has to be paid for by higher taxes. The net net is much higher taxes, particularly for the higher income brackets, and virtually the same health benefits for most Americans. Not only is this unnecessary, it is plainly a bait and switch plan. A first step towards a total Federal takeover. And worse than this. This is pure and simple socialism at work - the next step in the left's master plan for so-called "social equality."

	22-10-2004 22:39									#324
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ned I think the stock market is a better indicator of what really was going on in the economy.

Not really. It's a good indication of how corporations are doing, but not the economy over all. We still had extremely high unemployment at that point. Actually, we still do, but the Repugs didn't renew unemployment extensions, so a good chunk of people expired off the unemployment rolls without finding work. So will I in about two months.

	22-10-2004 22:47									#325
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ned Kontiki, I hate to go through this once again, but there does seem to be a strong correlation between budgets moving from deficit to surplus and the onset of recession. (Deficits add to demand. Surplusses subtract from it.) All this suggests is that budgets have a strong effect on the so-called business cycle, and that one should plan on a modest deficit and never plan on a surplus -- at least in the absence of significant inflation.

You can go through it as many times as you want, Ned. It's not going to make it right.

	22-10-2004 23:05									#326
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki You can go through it as many times as you want, Ned. It's not going to make it right.

Kontiki, I assume, then, that you deny that Federal budgets have an effect on the economy.

	22-10-2004 23:20									#327
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Oerdin,

I too think the best situation is a split government (Dem Pres, Repub House, Even Senate sounds good to me).

Ned,

So what you're saying is that the government should run a deficit every year?

Are you high?

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 23:25									#328
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Ned, the Canadian government just racked up its seventh straight surplus. By your logic, we must be in one of the longest, deepest recessions the world has ever seen.

	22-10-2004 23:27									#329
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Quibble: but aren't the provinces running massive deficits?

-Arrian

	22-10-2004 23:32									#330
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Ned, the Canadian government just racked up its seventh straight surplus. By your logic, we must be in one of the longest, deepest recessions the world has ever seen.

I suspect yuo did not read or did not understand the word "moving."