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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Great idea. You will win the hearts and minds of the Iraqis in no time. Lots of them, separated from their bodies. And the rest if the population would love you for it even more than they love you already. 
I did not say he will return, I said there will be more uprisings. Iraq and especially the south are full of El Sadrs.
EDIT: By the way, the way you talk about the need to "squash uprisings" instead of fighting their reasons makes me doubt, that the Iraqis are better off under your thumb than under Saddams. He also solved his problems by "squashing uprisings". |
You have to remember these people that are uprising are the enemy, and as a percentage of the total population, it is a fraction. Once all these radicals are "subdued" and they start to listen to what we are trying to do for them, I don't see why any "fair" minded person would object. Now if they want to continue with a radical version of their religion, we do have a problem and we cannot let that continue, a democracy has to be set, fair for everybody.
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
You're right, it really didn't work in Japan when we nuked two cities, they continued to fight to the very end.
Look I am no backer of massive loss of life like this, I believe there are better ways, however, in some circumstances if you don't fight at the ferocity level or greater of your opponent, sometimes you are doomed from the beginning. |
They surrendered in the war because they realized they couldn't win it.
If we hadn't of been there and devoted massive efforts to modernizing and helping them, then they would have hated us. Equally important is the fact they expected us to kill them, enslave them, etc, as they did to others. Their gratitude on the fact we didn't treat them as horribly as they treated their enemies is a massive part of why it worked.
Iraq isn't like that, the culture is too different, we are already there, and there are too many other different factors that make the analogy unworkable.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Come on Drach, even Kerry admits that raising the taxes on the so-called rice nets only 800 billion, leaving a 400 billion shortfall.
And, Kerry has already earmarked the SAME money to cut the deficit in half. |
Outside and inside estimates of the health-care plan indicate it will cost about 660 billion or so, if memory serves (it is somewhere in the 600-billions).
Only extremely biased estimates have said otherwise.
-Drachasor
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:20
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Japan =! Iraq. Germany =! Iraq.
Furthermore, we're telling the Iraqi people we are not fighting against them, but rather we are trying to help them become a democracy. The war is over, remember (so sayeth teh Dubya)?
When we obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were involved in a total war with Imperial Japan. The Japanese people at that particular time WERE our enemies (despicable as that may be, it's true), not just the IJA/IJN. It's very important, from the perspective of "winning the peace" in Iraq, to *not* give the Iraqis the impression we are their enemies. The people working against us in Iraq would LOVE it if we did something this stupid. They would then turn around and tell Iraqis "see, all that bad stuff we've been telling you about the Americans is TRUE!"
For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).
-Arrian
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Japan =! Iraq. Germany =! Iraq.
Furthermore, we're telling the Iraqi people we are not fighting against them, but rather we are trying to help them become a democracy. The war is over, remember (so sayeth teh Dubya)?
When we obliterated Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we were involved in a total war with Imperial Japan. The Japanese people at that particular time WERE our enemies (despicable as that may be, it's true), not just the IJA/IJN. It's very important, from the perspective of "winning the peace" in Iraq, to *not* give the Iraqis the impression we are their enemies. The people working against us in Iraq would LOVE it if we did something this stupid. They would then turn around and tell Iraqis "see, all that bad stuff we've been telling you about the Americans is TRUE!"
For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).
-Arrian |
Arrian,
First of all, he never said the War was over, Mission Accomplished for a battle group and we had taken over the infrastructure of Iraq. The war against terror goes on, show me where Bush said the war on terror is over.
Secondly,
Sir Ralf indicated that Fullaja residents are willfully helping the insurgents and I said if that is correct, it makes them like a Japan or Germany, we are against that city. And we should treat it as such, meaning, bringing the devastation so miserable to them, that we take the fight out of them.
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Sir Ralph
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Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
You have to remember these people that are uprising are the enemy, |
They are YOUR enemies. I doubt the majority in Iraq calls, for example, Fallujahs population "enemy".
quote:
and as a percentage of the total population, it is a fraction. Once all these radicals are "subdued" and they start to listen to what we are trying to do for them, I don't see why any "fair" minded person would object. |
I doubt you would gain the trust of the rest of the Iraqis by slaughtering their brothers, and be it only "a fraction". Imagine, for some reason the USA were occupied by a foreign power and there would be an uprising, say, in California, against the occupants. If they would squash it by firebombing (like you said), or by slaughtering the "rebels" otherwise, would the rest of the American population now obey?
quote:
Now if they want to continue with a radical version of their religion, we do have a problem and we cannot let that continue, a democracy has to be set, fair for everybody. |
If you try to impose a democracy in the Iraqis (or anybody else for that matter), you will fail miserably. You can not force a democracy at a gun point. The Iraqis will choose their form of government themselves, and if they choose to be a Theocracy, so be it.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
For what feels like the hundreth time: Truth not important. PERCEPTION important. And we're losing the perception battle (the best case scenario would be if Trush and Perception and our interests all lined up, but that ain't the situation now, folks).
-Arrian |
Losing, only if you listen to the anti-Bush media. The people who come here from Iraq to thank us are utterly shocked by the level of pessimism protrayed by the anti-Bush press.
Last edited by Ned on 21-10-2004 at 00:55
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
Arrian,
First of all, he never said the War was over, Mission Accomplished for a battle group and we had taken over the infrastructure of Iraq. The war against terror goes on, show me where Bush said the war on terror is over. |
He said the war in Iraq was over, and that is what Arrian was talking about. Of course, it isn't really over.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/01/bu...ript/index.html
quote:
Admiral Kelly, Captain Card, officers and sailors of the USS Abraham Lincoln, my fellow Americans, major combat operations in Iraq have ended. In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed. |
quote:
This nation thanks all of the members of our coalition who joined in a noble cause. We thank the armed forces of the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland who shared in the hardships of war. We thank all of the citizens of Iraq who welcomed our troops and joined in the liberation of their own country.
And tonight, I have a special word for Secretary Rumsfeld, for General Franks and for all the men and women who wear the uniform of the United States: America is grateful for a job well done. |
quote:
Secondly,
Sir Ralf indicated that Fullaja residents are willfully helping the insurgents and I said if that is correct, it makes them like a Japan or Germany, we are against that city. And we should treat it as such, meaning, bringing the devastation so miserable to them, that we take the fight out of them. |
That is simply not how you win the hearts and minds of the people. Especially in Iraq, you need to reach out and show people a better way.
Of course, Bush could have stopped the take-over of Fullaja, but he didn't want the deaths during an election year so he didn't order our troops in. So now we aren't even in control of Iraq as much as we could be (not even considering the insufficient troop numbers, etc, etc).
Way to be a leader 
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Not necessarily. The problem was that the likes of Kerry delayed peace. You got it BACKWARDS. |
A statement with nothing to back it up.
The likes of Kerry are not the likes of Fonda. Kerry and those like him did nothing to delay peace. If anything, such protestors made the war end sooner.
-Drachasor
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
They are YOUR enemies. I doubt the majority in Iraq calls, for example, Fallujahs population "enemy".
I doubt you would gain the trust of the rest of the Iraqis by slaughtering their brothers, and be it only "a fraction". Imagine, for some reason the USA were occupied by a foreign power and there would be an uprising, say, in California, against the occupants. If they would squash it by firebombing (like you said), or by slaughtering the "rebels" otherwise, would the rest of the American population now obey?
If you try to impose a democracy in the Iraqis (or anybody else for that matter), you will fail miserably. You can not force a democracy at a gun point. The Iraqis will choose their form of government themselves, and if they choose to be a Theocracy, so be it. |
I don't know where you are getting the Iraqi brotherhood from, Kurds really don't care for the Sunni Muslims and we know how well the Shittes and Sunni Muslims care about each other. In all honesty at this time I don't think the Shiite's give a rats ass what happens to the Sunni Muslims.
BTW, the USA did have that happen, it was around the 1860's and we called it the Civil War, we killed alot of Americans in those 4 years.
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Defiant
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WISCONSIN
Aug 1999
time: 05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Drachasor
He said the war in Iraq was over, and that is what Arrian was talking about. Of course, it isn't really over.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/05/01/bu...ript/index.html
That is simply not how you win the hearts and minds of the people. Especially in Iraq, you need to reach out and show people a better way.
Of course, Bush could have stopped the take-over of Fullaja, but he didn't want the deaths during an election year so he didn't order our troops in. So now we aren't even in control of Iraq as much as we could be (not even considering the insufficient troop numbers, etc, etc).
Way to be a leader
-Drachasor |
The war over in Iraq is the Infrastructure being controlled and we did that, this is the war on terror in Iraq, now. You have outsiders and some remnents of Saddam fighting. When they are beheading civilians, blowing up school children, this is not a country war, it is a terror war and that is what we are fighting.
OK, so if Bush could have taken Falluja earlier, I agree and we should have, why is he now piling up forces around Falluja getting ready for a massive assault in an election year, just days away?
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
I have repeatedly quoted the NV negotiators themselves to this effect. I have also pointed to Kerry's shrine in the NV War Memorial.
Please, please accept what I say as true, or search here in Apolyton for another of my transcriptions of their negotiating points. |
The shrine is to him trying to make peace, was it not? (though I admit I can find no evidence on the 'net--including reliable news sites) that this even exists.
The only other evidence is that he talked to the NV negotiators about releasing POWs and trying to get peace to happen sooner.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Defiant
Yea, the Iraq-Iran war really proves that point, what did they kill between them, a million, yea we can do so much worse. |
The test is not wether we can be better than the Iraq-Iran war, the test is wether we can win the peace and convey our friendship and peaceful desires with Iraq and the Middle East. Massive deaths are not going to do that.
-Drachasor
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
This is more racist garbage you hear constantly from the left. It justifies their coddling of dictators worldwide. It prevent anyone for actually doing something in this world about oppression and the lack of human rights. This viewpoint is inhumane and insufferable -- akin in many respect to the opposition of the Republican Party just prior to the Civil War. |
His point was that if they democratically choose to have a theocracy, then what can we do?
You can't force democracy on people that choose something else. If they choose something else then it is indicative of not being ready for a democracy; but in time they will become so.
-Drachasor
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21-10-2004 00:07
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