23-10-2004 02:20									#241
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Speculation, in this case, is a bad thing. It is not a good thing to be accustomed to positing things for which there is no evidence.

	23-10-2004 02:24									#242
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What exactly do You mean?
Do You mean "posting" by "positing" or "claiming"?
What I ment was that the Bible (especially New Testament, Old Testament should not be taken seriously by Christians) or even Al-Qur'an, and even sunna, they don't give answers to all the questions.
You have to think about it, judge the true meaning, make analogies...

Oh, and Soviet communism and nazism were part of secular humanism thought.
They didn't prove well.

	23-10-2004 02:26									#243
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The Soviets and Nazis were definately not secular humanists.

	23-10-2004 02:36									#244
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oh yeah?
You could doubt humanism of them,
but communism was uebersecular. At least in Christian countries.
And nasism, well, Hitler was kind of in favour of neo-paganism, but it was a rational choice by him, no doubt he didn't really believe in it.

	23-10-2004 02:41									#245
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The Soviets were secular humanists in ideology, if not in practice. So were the Chicoms. The Nazis may have been secular, but they certainly weren't humanists. It doesn't matter. The Western Christians have been content to allow a Holocaust every year in the 3rd world when they have been perfectly capable of preventing it. Every religion teaches that you are your brother's keeper, and they have failed the 3rd world utterly. As bad as Communist countries have been in practice, the religious world has been magnitudes worse. Having ethics means little if you don't act upon them.

	23-10-2004 02:51									#246
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You are right about that having ethics means little if you don't act upon them. But Christian world does something, doesn't it. What about Kosovo... Bosnia even - was it successful or not - and other attempts?
Perhaps not all is being done what can be, but it's because of mental barriers (You should not interfere in some other country's buiseness - of course I disagree with that), and because sometimes there are not good sollutions, and local people are not willing to help at all.
Of course, it'd be nice if the West acted like a great policemen, but then there'd be claims of rasism (because it teaches Africa what to do), of religious bias (because it teaches Muslims...), of unilateralism and all this crap.
I can't imagine You think communist countries were more successfull and less bloody than religious ones.
I guess I won't be able to change your opinion in that matter, You're too deeply communism-religionist, so I'll spare myself proving that.

	23-10-2004 02:55									#247
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quote: But Christian world does something, doesn't it.

Like they did in Rwanda eh? To me, it seems like being a christian or not has little impact on your ability to do good.

	23-10-2004 03:03									#248
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I don't think so. Such personalities as Mother Theresa from Calcutta and many others are effect of Christian teaching

	23-10-2004 03:26									#249
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Heresson The question is whether the humanity would have been better off without religion - and it wouldn't have been better, it'd have been worse. Nope, it would've been a lot better. All religion does is train people to believe things dogmatically and to reject even empirical evidence that contradicts their faith. That it has sometimes used its power to help people doesn't change the fact that it is essentially brainwashing. The world would've been much better if it had been run by secular humanists

Kuci, you absolutely ignore history and seem to have no knowledge of the origin our Western value system. Values such as equality of all, human rights and concern for the poor all are rooted in Christianity and the Catholic Church. Christianity is the very bedrock of modern liberalism.

	23-10-2004 03:27									#250
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Kuci, From what I see, he appears to be arguing the w/o religion, there would have been no secular humanists. I don't buy it. Just clarifying... -Arrian

Arrian, we will never know as humanists worked on a foundation created by Christians.

	23-10-2004 03:29									#251
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Che, you diatribe against "religion" by citing the Aztecs is way out of order where the discussion is of Christianity and the Catholic Church.

Last edited by Ned on 23-10-2004 at 04:10

	23-10-2004 03:35									#252
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de_aztec

	23-10-2004 04:44									#253
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Kuci, you absolutely ignore history and seem to have no knowledge of the origin our Western value system. Values such as equality of all, human rights and concern for the poor all are rooted in Christianity and the Catholic Church. Christianity is the very bedrock of modern liberalism.

Which is of course why there were people who espoused such things in pagan Greece and Rome.

	23-10-2004 04:45									#254
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btw, the Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius was a humanist. And that was before Constantine

	23-10-2004 04:59									#255
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quote: If conservative catholics wouldn't be able to hold office in the EU, there would be no EU.

Why?

I don't see conservative Catholics as a particularly dominent subgroup within the EU.

If they EU really welcomed conservative Catholics, why all this fuss about Buttiglione?

	23-10-2004 05:04									#256
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Possibly something to do with the trend that rights for women and minorities seem to increase in proportion with the distance between church and state.

	23-10-2004 05:04									#257
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quote: I, for one, believe that a person can made sound ethical choices without religion.

You say that upbringing determines whether a person makes moral decisions, but if this is so, how can we have any form of personal responsibility? Upbringing may influence the moral decisions, but it does not determine them. Two children raised in the same way, can grow up very differently depending on the choices that they make.

Secondly, you say that you make sound ethical choices without religion. Upon what basis do you determine a decision is moral? If it is upon the input of others, then you are just replacing one source of influence with another. Who's to say that the people you are relying upon are not under the influence of the church?

Finally, if you base your moral decisions upon your conscience, where does your conscience come from?

	23-10-2004 05:06									#258
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quote: Possibly something to do with the trend that rights for women and minorities seem to increase in proportion with the distance between church and state.

I suppose that's why France has fewer protections for the non-French because they are much closer geographically to the centre of the church, then say Canada or even the US.

	23-10-2004 05:09									#259
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But the French have the church of atheism ... but then I did say trend which in the strict sense would take France as an exception... however....

By atheism, I mean religiously or morally, theistically etc neutral in government... the French are pedelling atheism above others... including banning religious items from schools etc which I'm opposed to. There's a difference between draining a lake of muddy water and keeping the dry lake bed... and filling the lake instead with fresh water, where one drowns regardless.

	23-10-2004 05:19									#260
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You say that upbringing determines whether a person makes moral decisions, but if this is so, how can we have any form of personal responsibility?

Liberty and necessity (free will and determinism) are not inconsistent. That the sort of person you are was determined by your upgrading doesn't excuse your decisions.

quote: Secondly, you say that you make sound ethical choices without religion. Upon what basis do you determine a decision is moral? If it is upon the input of others, then you are just replacing one source of influence with another. Who's to say that the people you are relying upon are not under the influence of the church?

You've never really managed to give a good reason why it is "right" to do what god says.

quote: Finally, if you base your moral decisions upon your conscience, where does your conscience come from?

It's in my brain.

	23-10-2004 05:22									#261
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quote: which in the strict sense would take France as an exception...

PWND!

	23-10-2004 05:25									#262
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quote: Liberty and necessity (free will and determinism) are not inconsistent. That the sort of person you are was determined by your upgrading doesn't excuse your decisions.

Sure it does. Look at the punishments given the couple that locked their children in cages and forced them to drink their own urine. The courts here gave them less time because of their supposed abuse as children.

Free will and determinism are diametrically opposed.

quote: You've never really managed to give a good reason why it is "right" to do what god says.

If he made us, it makes sense to follow hiis instructions.

quote: It's in my brain.

Okay. Did you make your brain?

	23-10-2004 05:29									#263
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi PWND!

Hardly, read my post... and you fail to address what I have said on a necessary basis.... instead you seem intent on finding contrary examples .

	23-10-2004 05:30									#264
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quote: Okay. Did you make your brain?

Daily Heidegger/Husserl plug

	23-10-2004 05:34									#265
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quote: and you fail to address what I have said on a necessary basis.... instead you seem intent on finding contrary examples

I think you need to think out your argument again. It's pretty bad, if it can't make sense of France of all things.

It's not like I'm digging up obscure cases.

	23-10-2004 05:48									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Sure it does. Look at the punishments given the couple that locked their children in cages and forced them to drink their own urine. The courts here gave them less time because of their supposed abuse as children. Free will and determinism are diametrically opposed.

Then you have a narrow, impossible, and internally inconsistent view of free will.

Your thoughts are determined by the structure of your mind. Your mind is the thing that makes your thoughts. It obeys certain rules in thinking. This is inherent in the nature of action - any action is determined by natural laws. It just is. It's nonsense to say that an action (of anything) wasn't determined by natural laws, because there is nothing else that could have determined it - and SOMETHING had to figure out what was going to happen next. This doesn't change the fact that it is YOUR MIND that does the thinking, and therefore, YOU are responsible for your actions.

quote: If he made us, it makes sense to follow hiis instructions.

1) no it doesn't

2) that doesn't establish morality

quote: Okay. Did you make your brain?

No.

It doesn't matter. The very act of choice implies a mind, therefore, one CANNOT CHOOSE one's own mind. It doesn't matter, because it's YOUR MIND that made the choice. Free will is the ability to make your own decisions. You quite clearly have that ability, therefore you have free will.

	23-10-2004 07:42									#267
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Which is of course why there were people who espoused such things in pagan Greece and Rome.

Yeah, sure. We saw a complete collapse of inequality of man in ancient Rome; and of course, the Roman Emperor was the leader in abolishing titles and privileges in the upper classes. It was he who freed the slaves and ended the gladiator contests and executions for sport in the arenas.

Get real.

	23-10-2004 07:47									#268
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quote: I think you need to think out your argument again. It's pretty bad, if it can't make sense of France of all things.

The closer the church (internally consistent (relatively speaking) institutionalised dogma) is to the state, the more prescriptive government becomes, the few rights women and minorities, particular the bane of the Church at the given time, be it Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Witches, Homosexuals, get it in the neck. In France's case, it occurs when that institutionalised dogma is atheism, but the same logic holds. So try again .

quote: It was he who freed the slaves and ended the gladiator contests and executions for sport in the arenas

So the Roman emperors were a force for equality and righteousness now? . Name me the Roman emperor that freed the slaves? Abraham Lincoln?

	23-10-2004 07:51									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy So the Roman emperors were a force for equality and righteousness now? . Name me the Roman emperor that freed the slaves? Abraham Lincoln?

Whaleboy, what I said was mocking what Kuci said. He said that Marcus Aurelius was a humanist. True, he was a stoic. But to somehow believe that he saw all men as equals and actually did something about it is just a bit too much to take. The entire Roman system was based on legal classes that survived largely unchanged through the middle ages and into modern times.

	23-10-2004 09:28									#270
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Whaleboy, since you wet your toe in this thread, I'd be curious to know your opinion about my quarrel with Kucidude, if you care to read it.

Kucidude, I might care for an answer later, it depends on how I feel. You're definitely being a bore, though, much more so than usual. You can be a lot better than this.