20-10-2004 21:53									#31
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quote: The main issue with church and state combining is that in our current multicultural nations there are numerous religions and only the majority religion will make the rules (look at Saudi or iran for what that turns into). If the religious right ni the US keeps going, i can see the US turning into a similar state in due time, though I reckon you'd have certain states secceeding.

I think this is a little out of touch with the reality in the US. Undoubtedly, the US has a lot more varied religious tapestry than the EU. In my home town of 1,400 people, there were 14 different churches, for instance. That doesn't even count the Mennonites, Jehovah's Witness, Amish, and the like who had churches/meeting halls outside of town.

The US political system handles the religious cauldron that exists here just fine. I have no reason to believe that this ability would change with more of a mix of religions.

	20-10-2004 22:00									#32
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hehe, I like hyperbole on this issue. I know it's not that bad. Still there's something like 30% of your population describing themselves as reborn christians (my equivalent of christian fundamentalists).

	20-10-2004 22:02									#33
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All born again christians are christian fundamentalists? Wow.

	20-10-2004 22:24									#34
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All religionists are fundamentalists. That better?

	20-10-2004 22:33									#35
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quote: All born again christians are christian fundamentalists? Wow.

Heck, most of the ones I met are. Seeing as most of them were Catholics before the "rebirth"... generally to baptist, which are bad enough already.

	20-10-2004 22:36									#36
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DanS, don't say the US is any different. The Dems have blocked every Catholic court appointee for some time. Kerry said he would continue to do so in the last debate.

And if you look at Apolyton's American leftists, the thing that animates them more than anything else is religion. To the left, anyone who is religious is 1) stupid; 2) bigoted; 3) racist; and 4) homophobic, the exact opposition of the enlightened left.

	20-10-2004 22:43									#37
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I heard a 10 yo on the radio yesterday say that Bush is stupid because he doesn't support gay rights. The radio host informed the kid that neither does Kerry, in fact Chaney is more for gay rights than either of the democratic candidates. The kid than stammered and than said "yeah, but Bush is stupid, he don't even talk good."



People will vote Dem or Repub without even knowing what they are voting on. Similarly, ppl will not question their faith in respect to their everyday life. Religion gives a sense of blind security; "oh, well, if I die at least I will go to heaven, even though I killed 12 ppl... that's why I confessed."

The same people want the same blind security in their government

	20-10-2004 22:50									#38
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quote: And if you look at Apolyton's American leftists

I'd prefer not to, considering among other things that Apolyton leftists are in no way representative of leftists overall in this country. There are plenty of born again christians who are liberals. See, for instance, African Americans.

	20-10-2004 22:51									#39
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quote: There are plenty of born again christians who are liberals. Just look at the blacks.

Which makes even less sense!

IMO, blacks and religious idiots should be republicans... but then, they don't want to be confused with NASCAR fans

	20-10-2004 22:57									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I heard a 10 yo on the radio yesterday say that Bush is stupid because he doesn't support gay rights. The radio host informed the kid that neither does Kerry, in fact Chaney is more for gay rights than either of the democratic candidates. The kid than stammered and than said "yeah, but Bush is stupid, he don't even talk good."

Well, what could the kid do in the face of a lie? Cheney's position is essentially the same as Edwards and Kerry's, as far as he has stated it publicly, which is against a constitutional ban on the practice but personally opposed. Kerry and Edwards have not said much on civil unions thought. Do you have a quote in which Cheney backs gay marriages, or comes out for civil unions?

	20-10-2004 22:58									#41
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quote: Originally posted by DanS All born again christians are christian fundamentalists? Wow.

The converts are always the worst.

-Arrian

	20-10-2004 22:59									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I'd prefer not to, considering among other things that Apolyton leftists are in no way representative of leftists overall in this country. There are plenty of born again christians who are liberals. See, for instance, African Americans.

A lot of those evangelicals have worldly needs they need met, like jobs, healthcare, better housing and so forth- thus worrying about doctrinal issues like abortion is a secondary concern to better feeding and educating their kids, which the dems do.

	20-10-2004 23:06									#43
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quote: which the dems do

So the evangelicals can't supply for themselves so they get the dems who love to buy votes to give them what they need. Yup, dems are socialists, I'll agree.

	20-10-2004 23:22									#44
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quote: One of the enduring fascinating differences between the US (maybe Canada too) and the EU is that there's a strong anti-clerical strain in some countries of the EU and hardly any in the US.*

Anticlericalism, if anything, is stronger here in Canada than in the EU.

The local archbishop had his house stoned for his statements against gay marriage.

	20-10-2004 23:25									#45
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quote: It's not anti-Catholic, it's just that European governments are moving with the times and the Catholic leaders aren't - although many Catholics are.

It's gone beyond that to outright bigotry, and hatred directed against Catholics.

You may not agree with the church, but that's no reason to persecute their clergy.

	20-10-2004 23:26									#46
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I don't know why we should give a rat's ass to what the Vatican says in our policies. Just like I don't know why we should give a rat's ass to what some Mufti, Rabbi, Pastor, Shaman, or Unicorn-priest says when we decide on policies.

The catholics belief are becoming increasingly irrelevant in European politics. Good.

This doesn't mean we Europeans are all anti-catholics. We just finally understand that their belief system has nothing to do with our politics.

The argument that Europe at large is anti-catholic reminds me of Heresson's argument that France enforces a State-atheism, because their is no public religious education

	20-10-2004 23:26									#47
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quote: ACLU is sometimes called the "anti-Christian liberties union" by religionists.

And the saviour by the atheists.

	20-10-2004 23:26									#48
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quote: The local archbishop had his house stoned for his statements against gay marriage.

	20-10-2004 23:29									#49
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quote: The catholics belief are becoming increasingly irrelevant in European politics. Good.

They are marginalised, and persecuted in many European countries.

quote: This doesn't mean we Europeans are all anti-catholics. We just finally understand that their belief system has nothing to do with our politics.

Yes, but that doesn't justify barring them from active participation in the politics of your country.

quote: The argument that Europe at large is anti-catholic reminds me of Heresson's argument that France enforces a State-atheism, because their is no public religious education

No, there are some countries that are okay.

But the EU as an organisation is relentlessly anti-catholic.

Look at their attitude towards Ireland, Poland and Malta, and their drive and support for institutions to undermine their prolife principles.

	20-10-2004 23:35									#50
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quote: They are marginalised, and persecuted in many European countries.

How are they persecuted?

Edit

	20-10-2004 23:36									#51
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Waaaaah! People don't buy our bullshit! Waaaaah!



-Arrian

	20-10-2004 23:37									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi You may not agree with the church, but that's no reason to persecute their clergy.

Damn, when did my countrymen go back to burning Christians at the stake and why wasn't I invited?!

	20-10-2004 23:43									#53
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quote: quote: Vatican Is Alarmed by Political Trend In Europe Policies in Many Countries Contradict Church Doctrine By Daniel Williams Washington Post Foreign Service Wednesday, October 20, 2004; Page A16 VATICAN CITY -- The Vatican is becoming increasingly alarmed at what it regards as official anti-Roman Catholic sentiment and secular trends in Europe, as government after government approves measures on abortion, family law and scientific study that run counter to Catholic teaching. Vatican concerns rocketed into view during a controversy in the European Parliament this month over remarks on homosexuality and women by an Italian politician who has close ties to the Holy See. On Oct. 5, a committee of European Parliament members voted to oppose Italy's nomination of Rocco Buttiglione, a Christian Democrat, to be the European Union's justice commissioner. During a hearing before the Parliament's Civil Liberties Committee, he had labeled homosexuality a sin and asserted that the family exists so a woman can raise children under a man's protection. Buttiglione is a friend of Pope John Paul II and various high-ranking Vatican officials.

Well duh. The guy is avowedly intolerant, and openly advocates sexual inequality. It is completely opposite to what the EU is building, and it is only normal the representatives of the European population to vote him out.

quote: "It looks like a new Inquisition. It is a lay Inquisition, but it is so nasty," Cardinal Renato Martino, who heads the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, told reporters this week in response to the dispute. "You can freely insult and attack Catholics and nobody will say anything. If you do so for other confessions, let's see what would happen."

You mean, like this French editorialist who openly stated that "[he doesn't] like Islam. Not for the extremists, but for the religion in itself. This religion makes you stupid"? (for info, this mainstream conservative editorialist was completely unscathed, despite working for a newspaper that is very protective of the Jews)

quote: The controversy was new proof of the heat of a long debate in Europe over issues of women's equality in the workplace, gay marriage, abortion, scientific research using human embryos and separation of church and state.

Yeah, those are issues of the day, so there are debates. Why should there be a problem because we aren't inclined to follow the Catholic demands?

quote: Such debates are also intense in the United States, where the Vatican has waged a campaign against abortion, advising U.S. bishops on the inadmissibility of giving Communion to Catholic politicians who persist in supporting abortion rights. It did not specify names, but some bishops in the United States have said they would not administer the sacrament to Sen. John F. Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate. Yet trends that go against the preaching of the pope are more advanced in parts of Western Europe than in the United States, some Vatican officials contend. To the Vatican, Europe's moral landscape is bleak. Vatican officials and media outlets have expressed alarm over new policies being prepared in Spain by the Socialist prime minister, Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero. His government is considering legalizing gay marriage, speeding up divorces and ending obligatory religious instruction in public schools.

Oh the horror! Spain is separating Church and State! What an anticatholic country!

quote: Concurrently, Britain has approved research on the curative possibilities of stem cells from human embryos. In the Netherlands, the practice of euthanasia continues over church objections. In Italy, secular politicians have mounted a campaign to hold a referendum aimed at loosening a new law on laboratory-assisted fertilization. The law currently prohibits the use of donor sperm, frozen embryos and surrogate mothers. In a speech on Sept. 20, Cardinal Camillo Ruini, the head of Italy's bishops conference, criticized Spain for "emptying the family of its significance." He accused the Italian press of "hammering" the issue of artificial insemination in order to promote a referendum. Stem cell research in Britain and euthanasia for children with incurable diseases in the Netherlands "clearly demonstrate developments that result in the loss of recognition of the uniqueness and inviolability of the human subject," Ruini said. The lay offensive, as some Vatican officials call it, has prompted the pope to intensify the search for common ground with non-Catholics on key moral and ethical issues. In particular, the pontiff has called for teaching and promoting the philosophical notion of "natural law," unchanging truths that underlie human activity across religion and cultures.

Whatever. The EU is a democracy, and they can say whatever they want. And we are free not to listen to their crap.

	20-10-2004 23:48									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes, but that doesn't justify barring them from active participation in the politics of your country.

The clergy has all possible freedom to organize its religion, but we dont accept that Churchs interfere with politics. This needs no more justification that the mention *in God we trust* on banknotes.

But the clergymen, as citizens, enjoy the same rights than anybody to participate in politics, join political parties and be elected.

I agree with Spiffor sometimes ...

	20-10-2004 23:48									#55
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quote: The local archbishop had his house stoned for his statements against gay marriage.

quote: It's gone beyond that to outright bigotry, and hatred directed against Catholics. You may not agree with the church, but that's no reason to persecute their clergy.

Yes it is! I say that it's about time the atheists had revenge for the inquisition. BURN THE IGNORANT!!

quote: They are marginalised, and persecuted in many European countries.

Actually, in my experience in the UK, Catholics aren't. It tends to be the happy clappy "SIINNNNNEERRRRS" evangelicals that get most hostility, and I can't say I disagree with that, but no hostility to catholics. Catholics as far as I see are the more laid back and relaxed of them... ironically they seem most comfortable with their faith and able to question it!

quote: Yes, but that doesn't justify barring them from active participation in the politics of your country.

As long as religion doesn't come into it when they have positions of power, just as I'd say for any religion.

quote: Waaaaah! People don't buy our bullshit! Waaaaah!

	21-10-2004 00:07									#56
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Whaleboy enthusiam for burning Catholics at the stake is remarkable given as it comes from a person who denies there is a right or wrong moral philosophy.

Last edited by Ned on 21-10-2004 at 01:00

	21-10-2004 00:07									#57
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This should be titled:

"EU governments reject Catholic Orthodoxy"

	21-10-2004 00:08									#58
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Of course it should. But then would anyone have even opened the thread? Love the qualifying opening line from DanS. Kerry-esq, it is.

-Arrian

	21-10-2004 00:09									#59
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Euro's, why does a statement that the family exists for the protection of women to raise children cause such an uproar in Europe?

	21-10-2004 00:22									#60
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quote: Many of the founding fathers were deists or atheists.

I suppose you have evidence supporting your position.

How many of the founding fathers fall into this category?