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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
Actually, would they not be under the control of Islam? Or some sort of centralizing eastern potentate? |
Would Islam have existed without Christianity? IIRC Mohammed was influenced in his youth by tales about Christianity. When he grew up he decided to correct what he perceived to be the errors in Christian teaching. Besides, a Europe dominated by the warlike Germans might have been more than a match for the muslims. Christianity had at least some moderating effect upon Germanic culture. Unfortunately Germanic culture greatly warped the basic principles of Christian teaching as they became applied in the Middle Ages.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
I suppose you have evidence supporting your position.
How many of the founding fathers fall into this category? |
Let's see: Sam Adams, Ben Franklin, Thomas Paine, Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson were deists throughout their adult lives. James Madison, James Monroe and George Washington dabbled with deism at the time of the revolution, but eventually came back to Anglicanism (Episcopalianism). John Adams and John Hancock were New England congreagtionalists.
It very much depends upon whom you consider to be a founding father: the elite who drafted the Declaration and led the revolution, the entire Continental Congress (many of whom didn't even vote for independence), or everyone who supported and/or fought for the revolution?
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:20
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Strangelove, that's like saying if that guy didn't invent telephone back in teh day, there wouldn't be one now either. That is, false conclusion.
Anyway, I didn't know Catholics were being persecuted in Europe? I never even heard of it. And the protestants vs. catholics in the Island doesn't count.
If someone is being slapped all over most of the times, it's the muslims in Europe. They get it worst, and the raw deal. Euros are most racist against them.
Do I want muslim reps, catholic reps, and all kinds of other reps to put in their 2 cents in EU politics? No. Why shouldn't the casino owners have the same right too, I mean, they believe in .. maybe money and sex, why shouldn't they have the right to represent themselves too? What makes religion such power, that they think they can have that right? They don't have that right. They have the right to exists and practice it freely.
Catholics, muslims, jews, anyone can join politics. As individuals. They can run, just like everyone else. I don't see why they should get any extra points for being religious of some of the clubs.
Vatican etc stays influential and powerful. But they have very little to contribute to EU politically and most of all in decision making, I don't see why they have to be in the table for anything.
If the argument it, shouldn't someone be able to follow their own morals and rules, being religious of a religion? of course, and they can do that right now. And as individuals, they have all the same chances to rise to what ever position. Usually they don't do so good in here. Because we don't like religion in our politics. We don't believe that God has blessed that party, or their leader, as if someone would claim it, we'd see it as dangerous, fundamentalism.
Now, if the Pope gets to say anything in EU, then we need other counter parts also, and soon we have like double EU, the inner circle and the outer circle, and none of them works anymore. Religion has no right to be in politics. Just like politics has no right to be in religion.
To say EU persecutes Catholics is laughable. We persecute muslims if we persecute someone. Now, when Turkey joins and we have a lot of new muslims in EU, does anyone realistically think EU will allow the religious side to rule ANYTHING in EU policies? Absolutely NOT. And that's the way it should be. I don't see why we should make an exception when it comes to catholics. They're not special anymore than the rest of us. A person should decide if he comes to the decision table as politician, or religion practicer. And no they don't blend, other one has to come first and other one follows close behind. I say politicians first. But at the end, we can all vote on it, and so far, politicians comes first and in Europe they will continue to do so now and for a long time to the future.
oh and ps. it's not anti-christian. Just because someone doesn't give into demands of someone, doesn't make then anti-anything. Religionistas have no place in EU politics, never had, never will, so it's anti-religion equally, not just anti-christian. And if religion can interrupt politics, can politics interrupt religion? Why not?! What makes religion such superentity. Besides those bozos are as corrupt as mafia anyway, we don't want their blood money and what else. You think there's no blood money in Europes churches? Look again, I can start with mafia (yes it wasn't a joke), or what about .. no wait! Catholic church hiding and assisting nazis to flee, coordinating the routes to argentina etc?  And countless other times, no we don't want their blood in our hands, because criminals influence through church a lot. If you don't believe it, you should live in Europe and see it yourself, and stop being so naive.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:20
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Thanks for the thumbs ups guys 
Anyway the bigger points where, if we allow someone, then we have to allow everyone. If we don't then we ARE persecuting and anti-someotherreligion. It just won't work anymore, just like EU doesn't work now 
I didn't say beliefs have no place, a person can.. I mean vast majority of reps and all that ARE christians. They are christians already, I don't see why we should consider letting more christians in because they feel they need to bring more christian values in to the policies. They are already in there.
and it is totally legal to form a party, that has a big religious importance in their work. They just never do good in here, because yes, they do poor politics and much religion. They are often draconian too. We euros we like sex and stuff, we don't need the far right religionists to say don't use condoms, and don't have sex before you marry someone. Church says that, politicians job is not that.. their job is to do politics.
I just don't see hwo it fits in policits in bigger scale. Religion IS there already, as the HUGE majority does not consist of atheists.
And it's not a question of religious rights or anything else about religious freedoms. That's nto a freedom, the politics. Freedom is to be protected by the politics. THat's it. And again, lot of christians are already reps and other politicians. I mean what do they want? What's their agenda? We already follow the 10 commandments pretty good and keep them as moral guidelines anyway. What more do they want? And why they think it's their RIGHT? They already have the right to practice their religion and the right to participate in politics by running for a position, voting, and every OTHER right every citizen has. I don't see why religious people should have MORE rights than ordinary citizens. That just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:20
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And if we were pragmatic, our biggest problem would be muslim's rights and all that. It's like it's not even illegal to push them down in here at every step and level. They're kept back and away from everything powerfull, so they will never have any real say in anything. Not to mention the attacks people of all kinds in here do to them. Just like there has been attack against Jews in Europe, most attacks are against muslims.
I don't ever remember hearing a Jew getting attacked here because that person was Jewish, but there have been several incidents even in here, where muslims have been attacked. Many kebab joints have been burned down during the last 10 years (this was pre-911, now we also think they are all terrorists, before that we just thought they were POS).
So we should really think what we can do to protect them, lot of them are EU citizens. And now when Turkey steps in, they'll be a major player. I know it, we all know it muslims will not get any say in here, and if they try to shout louder, no one will really listen, except so that they shut down so they think we listened them.
It's not even close, I mean t here's not even a competition what religion is most oppressed in here, and that's the muslims hands down.
I wouldn't say we are racist against religions here in Finland, but against muslims there is a lot of racism even in here. People just don't respect their culture or habits or nothing. It's pretty clear, I've seen some racism too, and old people are racist against them too, openly too. In fact, it's somehow OK to be racist against muslims in here.
And I don't even defend them. I'm just saying these things, that if we were pragmatic, that would be the REAL issue when it comes to religion, problems and EU. Everything else is SECONDARY. But also in reality we just say ****'em all. Which is equal
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BlackCat
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It may be that EU has become anti crhistian, but on the other side, it has not become pro-someotherreligon, so in my view it's a great leap for humankind. No way, some of the ten commandments are sensible, but other parts are just redicilous (ie the part about other gods).
It's rediculous that we in the year 2000+ should be ruled by something written so long ago that the author couldn't fathom what is going on at present time - that wether it's social or technical (just take the example with if its legal for a orthodox jew to take an elevator).
Theoretically Turkey isn't a problem since it's a nonreligious government, but then agian theory is one thing practice is another.
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Ben Kenobi
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McGregornobi!
Oct 2002
time: 21:20
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quote:
Anyway, I didn't know Catholics were being persecuted in Europe? I never even heard of it. And the protestants vs. catholics in the Island doesn't count.
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Not when we are speaking about the EU, no.
quote:
If someone is being slapped all over most of the times, it's the muslims in Europe. They get it worst, and the raw deal. Euros are most racist against them.
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I agree with you here. However, it is not such that the persecution of the Muslims is done out of a preference for one kind of a religion, but in opposition to all religion in public life.
And of course, the Muslims push hard the opposite way, to insist upon their structures because there is nothing for them in the current system. There is no acceptance, so they must form their own structures.
quote:
Do I want muslim reps, catholic reps, and all kinds of other reps to put in their 2 cents in EU politics? No. Why shouldn't the casino owners have the same right too, I mean, they believe in .. maybe money and sex, why shouldn't they have the right to represent themselves too? What makes religion such power, that they think they can have that right? They don't have that right. They have the right to exists and practice it freely.
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I don't think they are asking this. There is a difference between a casino owner and a Christian. One, even if one owns a casino, is not always a casino owner.
A Christian should not be elected to represent the Christian viewpoint, but rather, as a representative of the people, be allowed to follow his conscience, as any other member. He should not be required to remove his Christian principles, because they are just as much part of his conscience, as atheism may be for others.
quote:
Vatican etc stays influential and powerful. But they have very little to contribute to EU politically and most of all in decision making, I don't see why they have to be in the table for anything.
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Either they have influence, or they do not. If they do not have the influence, then you need to ask yourself why.
The EU is in an odd position, as a body without direct connection to the states. As such, it is vunerable to the influence of the Vatican, in a way the states are not, because they both occupy similar realms. The Vatican has influence far beyond population and territory, but more of a philiosophical influence, over the ideas and thoughts of vast swaths of the population.
The same can be said for the EU. The EU wants to replace the structure that once occupied Europe, but to remove all the religious references, all the references to religion of any kind.
As such, they will always be diametrically opposed to Catholicism, and to the Vatican. There is no room for compromise.
quote:
Religion has no right to be in politics. Just like politics has no right to be in religion.
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Yet, each must be allowed to follow their conscience. One who is a Christian, has an equal right to follow his conscience as a representative of the people, as atheists are allowed to pursue their agenda.
quote:
when Turkey joins and we have a lot of new muslims in EU, does anyone realistically think EU will allow the religious side to rule ANYTHING in EU policies?
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You will not be able to avoid such questions. If you admit Turkey, then you have the problem, of how to work either to change Turkey to remove their influences of religion, or to allow Turkey to affect the EU.
That is what is happening right now with the admission of Malta, of Ireland and Poland. The individual states have policies diametrically opposed to the EU constitution, that the EU has sought to stake as central to their secular authority.
Turkey will feel the same problem. But they will not be so hesitant as Poland to work to change the EU to sort their goals.
quote:
They're not special anymore than the rest of us.
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The Vatican is a state within the EU, and as such, should have representation due to any state. If the EU wishes to remove the presence of the Vatican, then they need a good reason to do so.
If you remove the Vatican, because they are religious, and they make religious arguments, then you have admitted that the EU cannot compromise on such issues.
Ironically, a religious government can tolerate other religions far more than a secular body.
quote:
oh and ps. it's not anti-christian. Just because someone doesn't give into demands of someone, doesn't make then anti-anything.
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The EU is asking religious people to submit to their policies even against their wishes, in order to become a member. As such, the EU is anti-Christian.
quote:
And if religion can interrupt politics, can politics interrupt religion? Why not?!
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Remember Ake Green?
Politics has crossed their sphere. They interrupt religion.
Look at France, where the ban headscarves, they interfere with religious practice.
If politics stayed out of religion, then religion and the Vatican would stay out of them. But politics has chosen to draw battlegrounds against religion, so religion now has justification to seek political representation in order to defend their rights.
quote:
Catholic church hiding and assisting nazis to flee, coordinating the routes to argentina etc?
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Finland was an ally of the Nazis. The blood is on your hands.
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BlackCat
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quote:
Originally posted by DanS
Finland is one of those countries that has a state religion. Denmark does too. |
Yes and no - we have a official church in denmark, but politcally it has no influence - the only fantasy (oops, religious) party we have is struggling at the low water mark for representation (2%) - we also have a serious debate about cutting the bonds between church and state since it's mainly legal rights that are the difference between the to courses (ex you are better secured legally by a church wedding than a nonchurch wedding)
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BlackCat
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Ben Kenobi :
Yes, a member country can have their own legislasion for pro/non abortation f.ex. ireland. So yes, the catholichs has the possibility to make their own desicions, but on the other hand eu also permits people to take their own descisions and go to another country and get the abortion.
I can't see it's a problem if the individual person can avoid the opression of the state especially if it's related to religion.
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21-10-2004 02:59
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