22-10-2004 20:12									#31
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quote: You got to able to put them all to the ground, then you'd be able to teach them what love is.

I don't quite know what you're suggesting!

	22-10-2004 20:13									#32
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If you don't go to the police, buy a rifle and hunt them down one at a time.

	22-10-2004 20:13									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy IMO you should run your opinions about the Mill Limit by its creator (namely me) before you state them as if to correct said creator!

So when I argue against the religionists I should try and conjure up the ghost of Ockham?

I've read the piece you wrote on the Mill limit, so I understand what it is.

	22-10-2004 20:13									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy But you gotta admit, they sound fun!

yeah. brass knuckles are fun too. I was thinking about getting them until I heard they are considered lethal weapons. They are very illegal.

It's funny in the U.S. brass knuckles are illegal, but guns aren't. hmm

	22-10-2004 20:13									#35
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The best solution is to avoid such situations in the first place.

	22-10-2004 20:16									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I don't quite know what you're suggesting!

Quit your overactive imaginations whaleboy.

	22-10-2004 20:17									#37
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quote: So when I argue against the religionists I should try and conjure up the ghost of Ockham?

If you had Ockham available at the time, then yes you should. Obviously you don't so you have to make do. Why walk when you can ride a bus? (so to speak ).

quote: I've read the piece you wrote on the Mill limit, so I understand what it is.

Then you are 15 months behind the times on the subject

	22-10-2004 20:18									#38
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Damn, Whaleboy, I feel bad for you. That blows.

But I also find it strange. I grew up in a pretty rough area of a large US city and never had any problems like that, nor heard of anyone who did. Sure, I'd hear of people getting shot (noone I knew, mostly gang members), and people would get robbed, but getting punched in the face and kicked when you're down? That sounds excessive. Did they beat you up to get your wallet etc, or did they do it for the hell of it. In the urban US when people are mugged, you'll only get beat up if you resist, and then only to the point where they can take your stuff and run. Redneck areas are another story and I'm not familiar with them.

Is this common in the UK? Just random unnessesary violence? I never thought so...

	22-10-2004 20:19									#39
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quote: Is this common in the UK? Just random unnessesary violence? I never thought so...

Hell yes

	22-10-2004 20:21									#40
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quote: It's funny in the U.S. brass knuckles are illegal, but guns aren't. hmm

That is strange, but I'd rather go out looking like Zorro than a strange lovechild of Mr T and Robocop .

	22-10-2004 20:22									#41
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn I grew up in a pretty rough area of a large US city and never had any problems like that, nor heard of anyone who did.

When you live in or grow up in suchareas, you tend to be far more aware of your surroundings and nip developing bad situations in the bud. I never had a problem until I moved away from a bad area and let my guard down. Then some visiting thugs got me cuz I wasn't paying attention.

quote: Sure, I'd hear of people getting shot (noone I knew, mostly gang members), and people would get robbed, but getting punched in the face and kicked when you're down?

It's cuz he fought back. They don't like it when you have the temerity to try and hurt them, and apparently he did actually hurt them. That would have made them mad.

	22-10-2004 20:23									#42
	Re: I have changed my position on gun control Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy So I think handguns/revolvers (I don't know much about guns so probably some Americans could help me out here) should be legalised, but only for law abiding, upstanding people who have proved themselves good, reasonable people and not dilenquent... so obviously criminals and the undesireably element should be forbidden ownership. Now obviously they can get guns anyway illegally and they can be easily hidden which does suck.

Unfortunately, "undesirable element" is purely subjective. There really is nothing to stop burberry-clad townie ****ers against whom nothing has ever been proven or even accused, walking into a gun shop and going shopping for more phones and CD players.

I really don't think easing weapons restrictions would work in Britain. The people who would need them - the not-cool, not-hard, not-swaggering defenseless wouldn't buy one, and the aggressive dickweeds would. It might lead to a decline in the townie-****er population, just through ghetto-style infighting, but that's hardly a sensible solution to anything.

Four unarmed teens vs a rapier would be really funny, admittedly. But only if the swordsman knew how to use it, and only until one of them draws a newly legalised handgun.

I think if I were in a situation like you were in, I'd be grateful they didn't pull a flick-knife, rather than disappointed I didn't have a pistol. The old cliche don't bring a gun to a knife fight holds just as true a level down: don't bring a knife/rapier/whip chain/gun to a fist fight! Escalating the lethality of anyone is generally not a good idea, because there will never ever ever be a system which can distinguish people who will only use weapons legally from those who will not.

	22-10-2004 20:23									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Spec Right. Legalise guns, so thta when this happens again, they'll have guns to. Now THAT will be fun. How is it different if everyone has a gun, aside from the fact that people wont survive experiences like you just lived? You know, someone faught someone else somedaty. And that person lost, so he made a weapon so it would'nt happen again. The next time, he used that weapon, he won. But the opponent made a bigger weapon, and on, and on, and on. Discusting. Use your freakin fists pussies! Spec.

Just so you know, people like that really don't give a **** if guns or legal or illegal. It was illegal for them to assualt him but that apparently didn't stop them.

	22-10-2004 20:24									#44
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quote: Originally posted by JimmyCracksCorn In the urban US when people are mugged, you'll only get beat up if you resist, and then only to the point where they can take your stuff and run.

Yes that's what we are told. Just give them whatever they want and hope they let you go.

I have to say it is a smart choice although it doesn't sound good. And will this encourage them if they always get what they want?

	22-10-2004 20:25									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy If you had Ockham available at the time, then yes you should. Obviously you don't so you have to make do. Why walk when you can ride a bus? (so to speak ).

You don't own the Mill limit. Once you've explained it, unless you actually change the underlying concept anyone can apply it.

	22-10-2004 20:27									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber Just so you know, people like that really don't give a **** if guns or legal or illegal. It was illegal for them to assualt him but that apparently didn't stop them.

In Britain it does make a difference. At least in most places in the country, random violence is not perpetrated using weapons. If it is, then at most it'll be a flick knife or a baseball bat. I don't know whether its because guns are hard to get (having never tried to acquire one) or whether shooting random passers-by is just a stop beyond what even the most anti-social piece of scum would consider.

There still seems to be a moral line between lethal force and fist-assault. Thank goodness.

	22-10-2004 20:30									#47
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Simply introducing a firearm into a situation like this doesn't magically resolve things. You must have both the skill and will to use it or all you will have accomplished is giving the criminal a new toy to use. It's not a cure all of crime.

	22-10-2004 20:32									#48
	Re: I have changed my position on gun control Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I can't go to the police because technically I think I did them more damage and it's my word against theirs, though admittedly, as snobby as this sounds, my RP accent is likely to cut more ice than their slack jawed Northamptonian drawl.

If you don't even report a crime, you can't complain about the cops being useless.

Certainly the cops want crime reported, because the more crime reported, the bigger their budgets.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Anyway I can't really be bothered anyway, I'm happier that I hurt them than I would be if I was just a victim.

Ah, the real reason why you don't want to report it - you can't be bothered.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Anyway all that aside, and the fact that I'm ****ing angry at the moment, ... So I think handguns/revolvers (I don't know much about guns so probably some Americans could help me out here) should be legalised, but only for law abiding, upstanding people who have proved themselves good, reasonable people and not dilenquent... so obviously criminals and the undesireably element should be forbidden ownership. Now obviously they can get guns anyway illegally and they can be easily hidden which does suck.

One problem here. Banning criminals from having guns doesn't actually stop them acquiring them.

Looser gun control in the UK would mean you wouldn't just have lost your moby and CD, you could quite easily have lost your life.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy However, I've been thinking of short swords. Four unarmed teenagers against one man with a rapier aren't going to get very far, plus you are effectively saying, "attack me, and I have the choice between beheading you, disembowling you, castrating you or simply impaling you", which will make them think twice against the innocent people they attack.

Again you make the mistake of assuming they won't have a weapon if you do. One short sword isn't going to do anything against four short swords.

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Children need parents, rules and discipline.

Amen, brother.

I can understand you being angry.

However, one piece of positive action you can take legally, which might help the next time, and will certainly make you feel safer;

WEAR BODY ARMOUR!

	22-10-2004 20:33									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat In Britain it does make a difference. At least in most places in the country, random violence is not perpetrated using weapons. If it is, then at most it'll be a flick knife or a baseball bat. I don't know whether its because guns are hard to get (having never tried to acquire one) or whether shooting random passers-by is just a stop beyond what even the most anti-social piece of scum would consider. There still seems to be a moral line between lethal force and fist-assault. Thank goodness.

I wouldn't take much comfort in the moral consistency of criminals but that's just my experience around the states. Go with what works for ya

	22-10-2004 20:34									#50
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My First Sergeant in Iraq was a school teacher from San Francisco who also happened to be licensed to carry a concealed pistol. He's a Vietnam vet who likes to ride large expensive American motorcycles and who also completely believes that the right to own fire arms is an intricate part of a person's right to self defense.

In any event one day he finished lunch and was walking to his bike when he finds four burly Mexican "gangsta" guys who walk towards him saying "That's a nice bike; I think I might just take that bike". Carefully keeping the Harley between himself and the robbers he then unbuttoned his jacket revealing the .45 in his hip holster and says "I rather like that bike". The four Mexican guys decided to piss off and find someone else to steal from.

I do believe responsible citizens are better protected when they own their own fire arms.

	22-10-2004 20:34									#51
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Cruddy is right, it should be reported.

	22-10-2004 20:36									#52
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If we keep guns hard to acquire, they can still commit robbery relying on fists and numbers, and so usually its more trouble than its worth to get one (or at least to use one).

	22-10-2004 20:37									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I do believe responsible citizens are better protected when they own their own fire arms.

The problem is all the irresponsible, law-abiding gun owners, and there's a lot of them.

	22-10-2004 20:41									#54
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trust me, legalizing firearms in the UK is a bad thing. Your country is a hell of a lot better than the U.S. on crime. I'd kill to live there

The reason why I'm against making firearms illegal in the U.S. is because it is too late for us. There are too many guns out there. Making them illegal now just keeps them out of the hands of people who want to defend themselves. The only way around this is to have the goverment go door to door and collect all the guns. For obvious reasons, this is unacceptable.

As I've said. It's too late. We will slowly kill ourselves off with guns, and when the dust settles, maybe we'll have a peaceful society

	22-10-2004 20:44									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy I figure it makes sense that people are nicer to each other when they have the ability to kill each other at the touch of a button.

Your average street thug certainly isn't going to risk his life over a cell phone and a CD player if the other guy might have a 9mm and a legal right to shoot.

	22-10-2004 20:45									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Your average street thug certainly isn't going to risk his life over a cell phone and a CD player if the other guy might have a 9mm and a legal right to shoot.

he will if he's packin'

	22-10-2004 20:58									#57
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Most guns used in crimes are bought legally and then resold.

	22-10-2004 20:59									#58
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Most muders are done by people one knows- one is not likely to be packing at home, to make sure honey does not blow you away.

	22-10-2004 21:01									#59
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quote: Unfortunately, "undesirable element" is purely subjective. There really is nothing to stop burberry-clad townie ****ers against whom nothing has ever been proven or even accused, walking into a gun shop and going shopping for more phones and CD players.

Well there should be. Wearing burberry? **** off.

quote: You don't own the Mill limit. Once you've explained it, unless you actually change the underlying concept anyone can apply it.

That I have, and I own it until I release it, in the meantime, I will own you if you argue by the old version .

quote: If you don't even report a crime, you can't complain about the cops being useless. Certainly the cops want crime reported, because the more crime reported, the bigger their budgets.

It's reciprocal really, but then, I'm one guy what difference can I make with a waste of my time?

quote: Again you make the mistake of assuming they won't have a weapon if you do. One short sword isn't going to do anything against four short swords.

An illegal weapon depends on it being easily concealed. You can't do that with a 3-foot rapier.

	22-10-2004 21:03									#60
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quote: That I have, and I own it until I release it, in the meantime, I will own you if you argue by the old version

IIUC, the Mill limit was just the point of maximum liberty, right? Utilitarianism for liberty instead of happiness.