26-10-2004 20:34									#31
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bfg900-

I'd like to hear your answer to my original post.

	26-10-2004 20:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Americans that brought Africans across the Atlantic and enslaved them, SAVED those Africans and their decendants from the Holocaust that is 21st century Africa.

It's sad that we still have apologists, such as yourself, for slavery even today.

	26-10-2004 20:40									#33
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 It is a recurring theme in history that weak countries get exploited by stronger ones. It's immoral, it's not right, but it is a fact. It's just human nature for that to happen. If I'm an African-American looking at it from that perspective, I have to thank God my ancestors were snatched from Africa and brought to America.

That's like being thankful you only lost an arm and a leg in an accident instead of an arm and two legs. Certainly it is an incrediably selfish and inanely limited view of the world.

If that's your take on it, then it is just like saying Jews should be thankful for the holocaust because they got Isreal out of it.

-Drachasor

	26-10-2004 20:57									#34
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 If I was Jewish and had an ancestor snuffed out by the Holocaust, my life is not better today for the Holocaust having happened or for Israel having been created.

It is if you live in Israel.

quote: Americans that brought Africans across the Atlantic and enslaved them, SAVED those Africans and their decendants from the Holocaust that is 21st century Africa.

This is logically absurd. Africans brought over to the Americas were not saved from the 21st Century. They would not have experienced it regardless. Had the European powers not stolen one hundred million Africans (one third of whom died on the way, most of the rest of whom were worked to death when they got here), then carved up the continent and raped it, it is within the realm of possibility that Africa would not be the disaster it is today. Furthermore, America might not be the economy it is today, since it wouldn't have had the free labor to build up the wealth needed to start our industry.

You are saying that people should be grateful for one of the greatest crimes against humanity in history. You are saying that people should be grateful for the crimes committed against their ancestors. You are saying the people should be grateful for the residual effects of those crimes, because at least they aren't in Africa.

	26-10-2004 21:05									#35
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All this white washing of American slavery is just so stupid.

	26-10-2004 21:14									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Actually, without the trans-Atlantic slave trade today's descendents of the slaves that were brought over would not exist because their parents would likely never have met. Whether they would be in Africa today doesn't really enter into it.

That is probably true. If it weren't for slavery African-Americans would not exist. America would not exist in way we know it - we might still be an English colony. Are you just taking issue with the somantics of my argument or are you suggesting that blacks should view themselves only as Americans (because they could only have decended from a combination of slaves in America) and that they only need to be concerned about viewing slavery as a civil rights infringment on their American citizenship and not as former Africans escaping cutural domination by Europeans?

If you want to argue somantics, my premise is written incorrectly. But the same idea still applies. If you are an African-American concerned about the advancement of the African race, you must look objectively at colonial American enslavement of Africans as a positive thing because it paved the way for African assimilation into a European-based culture that had the power to conquer and destroy Africa if it had chose to.

I understand that it is difficult for blacks to be objective about this because they still have to deal with racism and subjugation by whites. For blacks, accepting this idea is almost like accepting the status of being a second-class citizen that has been forced on them by whites for so long. That is NOT what I am trying to suggest here.

	26-10-2004 21:46									#37
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 I understand that it is difficult for blacks to be objective about this because they still have to deal with racism and subjugation by whites. For blacks, accepting this idea is almost like accepting the status of being a second-class citizen that has been forced on them by whites for so long. That is NOT what I am trying to suggest here.

No, what you're trying to do, is white wash the history of American slavery.

	26-10-2004 22:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Name one country in the world that has produced more significant black contributions to humanity than U.S.

There was no racial segregation in Britain, so "special arrangements" had to be made for American forces in Britain for WW2. We abolished slavery long before you. Don't kid yourself into thinking you lead the world in this issue. You don't and never have.

	26-10-2004 22:03									#39
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Ming? I know you ask for people to attack the issues and not the posters, but is there any chance of some leeway when someone's posted a really, really stupid thread? Like 24-carat weapons-grade imbecility?

	26-10-2004 22:06									#40
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This from the guy who once called another poster a member of the Hitler Youth.

Jesus Christo.

-Arrian

	26-10-2004 22:11									#41
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@ Laz.

	26-10-2004 22:15									#42
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 That is probably true. If it weren't for slavery African-Americans would not exist. America would not exist in way we know it - we might still be an English colony. Are you just taking issue with the somantics of my argument or are you suggesting that blacks should view themselves only as Americans (because they could only have decended from a combination of slaves in America) and that they only need to be concerned about viewing slavery as a civil rights infringment on their American citizenship and not as former Africans escaping cutural domination by Europeans? If you want to argue somantics, my premise is written incorrectly. But the same idea still applies. If you are an African-American concerned about the advancement of the African race, you must look objectively at colonial American enslavement of Africans as a positive thing because it paved the way for African assimilation into a European-based culture that had the power to conquer and destroy Africa if it had chose to. I understand that it is difficult for blacks to be objective about this because they still have to deal with racism and subjugation by whites. For blacks, accepting this idea is almost like accepting the status of being a second-class citizen that has been forced on them by whites for so long. That is NOT what I am trying to suggest here.

I guess my argument is with your semantics. Otherwise, I agree that slavery has had some unintended positive effects to go along with the negative.

	26-10-2004 22:17									#43
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I'm just glad the US is ignoring the problem.

	26-10-2004 22:19									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I'm just glad the US is ignoring the problem.

Me too.

	26-10-2004 22:23									#45
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I've said for years that blacks in the US are, by and large, far better off than blacks in Africa, and as a result reparations are bullshit.

	26-10-2004 22:29									#46
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yeah they should be thankful for slavery!

	26-10-2004 22:50									#47
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Feel free to give them your money Sava.

	26-10-2004 22:52									#48
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Saying they should be thankful is like saying you should be thankful if a rich person kills your family and then adopts you. Yes, if they had left you to fend for yourself you'd be worse off, and if they hadn't done anything you might still be "worse" off (financially), but that hardly means you should be thankful for what they did.

-Drachasor

	26-10-2004 23:43									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Feel free to give them your money Sava.

	26-10-2004 23:46									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sava quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Feel free to give them your money Sava.

Don't be confused. That was deluded-person talk for "I have other issues."

-Drachasor

	27-10-2004 00:10									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Sava

If you support reparations for slavery, feel free to give them your money.

	27-10-2004 00:14									#52
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"I dream of a day when a man will be judged by the content of his character and not the color of his skin."

That's pretty simple stuff. Everyone should have gotten this by now.

There is no room for bigotry in this world.

	27-10-2004 00:28									#53
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 Name one country in the world that has produced more significant black contributions to humanity than U.S. None of that would have been possible if Africans were not assimilated into American culture via slavery.

I thought the origin of iron tools in north africa would be beneficial. Of course, it wasn't a nation-state, so it doesn't quite qualify...

Anyway, this thread gets my vote for Dumbest. Thread. Ever.

	27-10-2004 00:33									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp There was no racial segregation in Britain, so "special arrangements" had to be made for American forces in Britain for WW2. We abolished slavery long before you. Don't kid yourself into thinking you lead the world in this issue. You don't and never have.

This is your response to the statement "Name one country in the world that has produced more significant Black contributions to humanity than U.S." ? If Britain has abolished slavery before the U.S. then why don't they claim more siginificant Black contribution to humanity than U.S.?

The Brits may have abolished human bondage first, but they began a new kind of slavery under Victoria exploiting Asia and Africa economically.

	27-10-2004 00:48									#55
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quote: Democratic Republic of Congo

Only extreme illiteracy makes people misspell "Totalitarian" as "Democratic"

	27-10-2004 00:50									#56
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Saying African Americans should be greatful for slavery is absolutely retarded.

You have to wonder if any of the problems Africa is facing today would still be a reality if the slavers had never come. For example, the slave trade completely disrupted whole regions of Africa as they saw the most productive members of their community taken away. In traditional societies, such as they were, social stability can sometimes hang on a very delicate thread, and when you disrupt it so drastically and so suddenly, there's no way for that society to cope or go back to stability.

Also many parts of Africa were genetically raped. You know the stereotype of blacks in the US being bigger and taller and stronger than white people? There's a reason for that. The slavers didn't want puny guys as slaves, so they only took the biggest, strongest, fastest and smartest Africans as slaves... which meant that alot of Africa's most valuable individuals were gone. There's alot of literature out there on the effects this has had, and most of it is quite well founded.

Another thing is, you can't be so blind to think that European slaving and colonization hasn't drastically, drastically altered the course that Africa has taken in the past 500 years. Prior to the Euros going there, Africa was a realtively stable place, especially compared to Europe. If Euros hadn't gone there, there's a VERY good chance Africa wouldn't be in the trouble its in today.

African Americans and African instablity are two chips off the same block, you wouldn't have one without the other. They weren't spared anything.

	27-10-2004 01:02									#57
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 The Brits may have abolished human bondage

bondage

	27-10-2004 01:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by bfg9000 This is your response to the statement "Name one country in the world that has produced more significant Black contributions to humanity than U.S." ? If Britain has abolished slavery before the U.S. then why don't they claim more siginificant Black contribution to humanity than U.S.?

I think I just did, didn't I? Would you like me to repeat it?

	27-10-2004 01:07									#59
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Nah, I'm not going to bother with the rule-book. You're as dumb as a sack of hammers, aren't you BFG?

The current positives that black Americans have today didn't happen because of slavery. They happened in spite of slavery. Those involved in slaving weren't doing so out of some altruistic grand scheme- it was because they were ignorant, callous and/or evil. Worse still- even after emancipation Black Americans were still pretty much second-class citizens for the next century.

	27-10-2004 01:08									#60
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Well, I think that we nuke Mexico into the stone age, and make sure they aren't helped for a few hundred years. Then, a couple hundred years from now, we can saw that we, America, has contributed more significant mexican figures than any other country.



-Drachasor