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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp
Oh yes. For examples, try these.
Abolishing slavery decades before the US.
Using the Royal Navy to shut down the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Remind me again what the US was doing at the time?
Not having racial segregation in the 20th century.
Not having the Tulsa race riots.
Not having tens of thousands of racial lynchings.
Not murdering black civil rights activists in the 1960's.
Will those do for starters? |
Shall we discuss India in the 1930s and 1940s? Shall we perhaps mention a number of incidents during which British troops fired upon innocent unarmed Indian citizens? Perhaps we should discuss some of Mahatma Ghandi's observations of British society and its treatment of "wogs"? We could discuss Britain's attempt to squeeze taxes out of penniless Africans by forcing adult males, the family providers into conscripted labor, periods often encompassing the better part of the year in order to pay a "head tax", often causing the starvation of entire families. Shall we examine a number of incidents of mass racial violence occuring in Britain over the last 50 years involving whites attacking a variety of darker races. Shall we mention groups such as the BNP in such a context? Oh, pray tell, shall I go on.....and on.....and on.....and on?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
"In the 1890s, lynchings claimed an average of 139 lives each year, 75 percent of them black." |
No doubt these numbers have been gleaned from reported lynchings. Ignoring the existence of unreported lynchings paints an inaccurate picture of what was really happening.
And contrary to popular assumption, blacks also formed lynch gangs, mostly to lynch blacks, but sometimes to lynch whites. In Clarksdale, Tennessee, blacks lynched a white in 1914 for raping a black woman. The authorities later ruled that this was justifiable homicide. In 1872 in Chicot County, Arkansas, armed blacks broke three whites out of jail and shot them to death.
Nor was lynching by any means a sport in which any black was fair game. In Tennessee in 1911, four white men hung a black man and his two daughters for no good reason. This outrage roused the ire of the community - the whites were tried and two were hanged
quote:
"Between 1882 and 1968, an estimated 4,742 blacks were victims of legal lynchings (speedy trials and executions), private white violence, and 'nigger hunts,' murdered by a variety of means in isolated rural sections and dumped into rivers and creeks."
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What conveniently vague quote. No information is given as to the proportion of the 4,742 deaths that were a result of "private white violence" and "nigger hunts". For all we know, they account for two of the 4,742 deaths! Does the quoted author actually go into these details WRT the 4,742 deaths?
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mrmitchell
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I'm only on the first page and you know what I see?
bfg - "Them ignorant negroes should be glad we stole them thousands of miles from their homes, enslaved their families for centuries, and forced our religion on them. Look at them today - the very luckiest of them are almost as well-off as white people!"
Caligastia - "Lynching was acceptable if the victim was actually guilty of something."
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MrFun
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of Iowa
Nov 2000
time: 23:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
No doubt these numbers have been gleaned from reported lynchings. Ignoring the existence of unreported lynchings paints an inaccurate picture of what was really happening.
And contrary to popular assumption, blacks also formed lynch gangs, mostly to lynch blacks, but sometimes to lynch whites. In Clarksdale, Tennessee, blacks lynched a white in 1914 for raping a black woman. The authorities later ruled that this was justifiable homicide. In 1872 in Chicot County, Arkansas, armed blacks broke three whites out of jail and shot them to death.
Nor was lynching by any means a sport in which any black was fair game. In Tennessee in 1911, four white men hung a black man and his two daughters for no good reason. This outrage roused the ire of the community - the whites were tried and two were hanged
What conveniently vague quote. No information is given as to the proportion of the 4,742 deaths that were a result of "private white violence" and "nigger hunts". For all we know, they account for two of the 4,742 deaths! Does the quoted author actually go into these details WRT the 4,742 deaths? |
He does not provide a reference to his statistics, but I encourage you to look for material on lynching -- there is no doubt you will find similar figures.
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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Outrage as Black Reporter says 'Thank God for Slavery'
A black American author has sparked anger and controversy among black nationalists "by repudiating his African roots and thanking God his ancestor was enslaved."
"Keith Richburg has been shunned and insulted for daring to reject the Afro-centric idealism which is an article of faith in black America. In Out Of America, published in February,1997, (hardcover, 288 pages; 'Basic Books,' ISBN: 0465001874), after he spent three years reporting from Africa for the Washington Post, Mr Richburg hurls down a challenge to black American leaders to stop deceiving themselves and the 35 million (black) descendants of slaves, that Africa is Eden on earth.
"I'm tired of lying,' he writes. 'And I'm tired of all the ignorance and hypocrisy and the double standards I hear and read about Africa, much of it from people who've never been there, let alone spent three years walking around amid the corpses.
"Talk to me about Africa and my black roots and my kinship with my African brothers and I'll throw it back in your face, and then I'll rub your nose in the images of the rotting flesh.'
"Richburg spent three years covering the continent's senseless violence, corruption, bloody and incessant cruelties--machete-wielding Hutu militiamen, a cholera epidemic in Zaire, famine in Somalia, civil war in Liberia, disease, dirt, dictatorships, killer children, AIDS, terror.
"Had my ancestor not made it out of here,' Richburg muses, 'I might have ended up in that crowd...maybe I would have been one of those bodies, washing over the waterfall in Tanzania or maybe my son would have been set ablaze by soldiers. Or I would be limping now from the torture I received in some rancid police cell...'
Afrocentrism 'has become fashionable for many blacks, Richburg notes. 'It cannot work for me. I have been here, I have lived here and seen Africa in all its horror.'
"Mr Richburg's every word is an assault on the group identity politics which have taken hold among black intellectuals and leads, critics say, to a Balkanisation of American society. Thinking about his slave forebear, transported in chains to the Caribbean and thence to South Carolina, Mr Richburg writes: "Thank God my ancestor got out, because, now, I am not one of them [Africans]. In short, thank God I am an American."
"Borders, a Washington D.C. book shop, was packed this month for a lecture by Mr Richburg at which hecklers accused him of racial betrayal. 'One man demanded to know if the author had a white girlfriend,' said Mary Ann Brownlow, who organised the lecture.
"When Mr Richburg appeared on a talk show on Black Entertainment Television, Randall Robinson, leader of the TransAfrica lobby group and one of America's most prominent blacks, refused to join the discussion.
"Jackie Clark, producer of the show, said: 'We African-Americans have this vision of Africa as the motherland which we see in this wonderful light, but people who have lived there can burst this bubble. It takes courage to say things you know are going to outrage people, but I think Richburg wishes he were white.'
"Out Of America is a gruesomely detailed account of barbarism and corruption across the continent, particularly in Somalia and Rwanda. The author pulls no punches in condemning it, and no...myth is spared. When sketching how his ancestor was enslaved, he says it was first 'probably by a local chieftain.' The suggestion that African blacks were slave owners is anathema in America...
"Mr Richburg, who is now working for the Washington Post in Hong Kong, says he is not condoning the evil of slavery, but insists that condemning it should not blind blacks to the fact that good has emerged from it..."
Reviews of Richburg's Out of America:
E.G. Long: "Africa is a painful reality. Over the past 21 years, I have lived and worked in five African countries: Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Zaire and Nigeria. ..There is nothing in Richburg's book that I could contradict. I too, experienced the horror, and hopelessnesss of that continent. I read 'Out of America' in one sitting... "
Steve Wishnevsky: "This is the voice missing from the current race 'dialogue.' Mr. Richburg is a courageous writer and clear observer...His is an authentic voice and should be listened to closely. America is the only land where the descendants of Africans have anything approaching freedom and economic opportunity."
H. Luther: "So much of what you hear about Africa lately is from people who have never been there. People who want to romanticize what is in fact chaos and disaster...Richburg has written what he has seen, he has presented reality with great integrity. It is a must read. "
Note: Mr. Richburg's book is NOT for sale from the Campaign for Radical Truth in History. Order it at your neighborhood book shop.
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I plan to read this book. I hope all of you will read it too and then perhaps we can have another discussion on this topic with people who are willing to look at it objectively.
Last edited by Brundlefly on 27-10-2004 at 18:08
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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:20
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Slavery was not new to Africa. Traditionally, slavery was used as a punishment for serious crimes. However, although slavery was a punishment for criminals, they were, in the main, treated fairly well by their masters.
This was not the case once trading in slaves became 'big business'.
From about 1510, Europeans had begun capturing slaves and taking them to work in the Americas. They were easily able to do this because their weapons were much more powerful than the Africans' traditional spears and shields.
As the demand for slaves grew, the demand for slaves by Europeans grew. They exchanged guns for slaves and African chiefs, eager to possess guns which would give them power over rival chiefs, began inventing new crimes for which the punishment was slavery.
At the same time, coastal Africans were using guns to raid inland villages for the slaves that the Europeans wanted. Those who resisted capture were killed.
Slaves were chained together and marched to the coast. Sometimes this could take many days or weeks. Slaves who did not move fast enough, or showed any sign of resistance to the traders, were whipped.
Those who were too weak or sickly to complete the journey at the required pace were left to die.
Fear of the slave trader led many Africans to move to remote areas where the soil was not so good and they were unable to grow enough crops to feed themselves.
Africa became a continent of violence, war, fear and famine.
So I ask you again, as an African-American would you have wanted your ancestor to stay in Africa or head to America with the Europeans?
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by bfg9000
Unfortunately, this thread has not escaped the pile-on mentality of many OT posters who could care less about evaluating an argument and care more about just making a cute or outrageous post... |
Yep, that is just typical behaviour around here.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by bfg9000
Africa became a continent of violence, war, fear and famine. |
There is no causality between this statement, and the rest. Slavery did not turn Africa into a continent of violence, war, fear and famine. The forceful "modernization" of Africa turned the old, traditional and small scale conflicts into major ones. It also allowed a population boom.
And still, Africa is no more full of war, violence, fear and famine than 18th century Europe. Wars do occur, famines do occur, but people can generally live their lives, because war and famine are far from covering the whole of African territory.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by bfg9000
Africa became a continent of violence, war, fear and famine. |
Violence, war, fear and famine were not exactly uncommon in Africa beforehand. You make it sound as if every misery that Africans suffer was unknown to them before the slave trade.
quote:
So I ask you again, as an African-American would you have wanted your ancestor to stay in Africa or head to America with the Europeans? |
The vast majority of "African-Americans" have some european ancestors in their past. Therefore, without the slave trade, their ancestors would never have come in contact and these individuals would never have been born. I think you'd make a more convincing argument if you argued that Black Americans can thank the slave trade for their existence. If you could somehow know that someone's ancestors would have come together without the help of the slave trade, then yes, that person would have a reason to be thankful that their ancestors were brought to America, but I seriously doubt there is anyone like that alive today.
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Caligastia
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
Cali, you're an avowed racist. It is no surprise that 'Poly dogpiles you, simply because very few people here are racists like you are.
If you were an avowed nazi, would you be surprised that people dogpile you? |
I have never referred to myself as a "racist". Yes, I believe there are significant racial differences, but I don't think its fair to use such a negative word to describe someone who holds this belief. It might be accurate if you go by the strict dictionary definition, but IMO true racism is a form of hate, and I don't hate anybody as a result of my opinion on race.
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Drachasor
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The slave trade did do great damage to the existing governments in Africa, and quite argueably some even collapsed because of it.
However, there are are number of things you have to then consider about this.
1. No one should be "thanking god for slavery" since the trade caused great harm overall. It is quite possible that *without* the slave trade, Africa would have developed in a much more progressive and peaceful manner, thanks to the fact the native governments didn't collapse. The slave trade made Africa worse and caused a great deal of anarchy which Africa is still recovering from in many areas, imho.
2. Nor should anyone be thanking the slavers. That is like thanking someone for giving you a job after they kill your family on purpose. You might be better off with the job than you would have been jobless and an orphan, but that doesn't mean you should be thankful to the murdering job-giver.
3. At best you could say that looking back, it is perhaps better to of had your ancesters enslaved as opposed to staying in Africa, but this isn't the case for everyone in Africa certainly, so you can't be entirely certain about this. In any case, this is being thankful that you were involved in a lesser disaster, or less affected by the disaster. It was still a disaster however.
-Drachasor
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
So I ask you again, as an African-American would you have wanted your ancestor to stay in Africa or head to America with the Europeans? |
Or, alternatively, would you have wanted the Europeans to just stay the hell out of Africa?
I think many would take option #3.
After all, if the Europeans hadn't colonized Africa and engaged in the slave trade (no, slavery wasn't new to Africa, but on that scale? Come on), what is to say that the antecedents of this African-American couldn't have emigrated to the United States normally, as opposed to on a slave ship? You know, like so many other people did, seeking the land of opportunity?
To assume that the only way Africans could get here is via the slave trade is silly... much like the basic premise of this thread.
-Arrian
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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrian
Or, alternatively, would you have wanted the Europeans to just stay the hell out of Africa?
I think many would take option #3.
After all, if the Europeans hadn't colonized Africa and engaged in the slave trade (no, slavery wasn't new to Africa, but on that scale? Come on), what is to say that the antecedents of this African-American couldn't have emigrated to the United States normally, as opposed to on a slave ship? You know, like so many other people did, seeking the land of opportunity?
To assume that the only way Africans could get here is via the slave trade is silly... much like the basic premise of this thread.
-Arrian |
Do you spend a lot of time wishing that things from history did not happen and basing arguments on those wishes? My argument is not hypothetical, yours is.
Reality Check: read a few posts back - the one that I begin with "Slavery was not new to Africa".
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Drachasor
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quote:
Originally posted by bfg9000
Do you spend a lot of time wishing that things from history did not happen and basing arguments on those wishes? My argument is not hypothetical, yours is.
Reality Check: read a few posts back - the one that I begin with "Slavery was not new to Africa". |
Even you admit it was very, very different when done by the West.
And you have completely ignored my posts, on multiple occasions.
-Drachasor
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by bfg9000
Do French citizens of Romanian descent have a better quality of life than native Romanians? |
Generally yes. And in my case, the difference is astounding (I'm comfortably middle class in France, which PWNs pretty much everybody in Romania, save for the super-rich).
Yet, I don't think I should thank a brutal dictatorship that killed thousands, kept a population in fear, and generally destroyed my whole country of origin.
As for my existence: if my mother hadn't met my father, his sperm would have given somebody different, and her ovaries would have given somebody different. Heck, had they made love with one day of difference, I would have never existed. Like everybody here, I am purely a result of chance. And as such, I don't feel I should cherish the circumstances that led to my birth. It could have been a billion of different individuals, and I wouldn't be here to regret it.
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Brundlefly
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United States
Nov 2001
time: 00:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Caligastia
The vast majority of "African-Americans" have some european ancestors in their past. Therefore, without the slave trade, their ancestors would never have come in contact and these individuals would never have been born. I think you'd make a more convincing argument if you argued that Black Americans can thank the slave trade for their existence. If you could somehow know that someone's ancestors would have come together without the help of the slave trade, then yes, that person would have a reason to be thankful that their ancestors were brought to America, but I seriously doubt there is anyone like that alive today. |
Yes, I see your point again. If I knew more about philosophy maybe I could challenge you on the subject of existence, but I don't, so I'll concede that to you.
It is better for me to argue this not as it benefits individual African-Americans, but how American slavery has benefit the African race as a whole because it has allowed Africans to assimilate into a stronger conquering culture and make significant contributions to humanity. Contributions that they were not going to make had they been left in Africa to be ravaged by 19th-century European Imperialist economic exploitation and colonization.
Last edited by Brundlefly on 27-10-2004 at 20:04
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27-10-2004 03:49
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