28-10-2004 10:15									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Utter drivel. Apple can't keep up with demand - if the others are lamer than Apple at getting products to ship, they must really suck. The others have had years to do something and can't seem to get it right.

This is nonsense -- there are TONS of iPods sitting around in TONS of stores. I was just at FutureShop today and they've got many boxes of iPods (no iPod Photos or U2 ones, mind you). They don't even stock the Zen Touches right now, because they can't get ahold of them. In fact, no Future Shop in Canada has been able to obtain any yet.

And the fact that others have had years doesn't change a thing. If they don't have access to the manufacturing capability for consumer products, they can't do anything until it expands. It takes time to expand.

Apple is lucky because their computer sales are pathetic and have dropped for years, and has already had huge consumer product manufacturing capability compared to Creative.

Further, Apple simply has a LOT more money laying around to invest in manufacturing ahead of the curve, Creative doesn't have that luxury.

quote: I'd buy the 60gig photopod if I had the money. Purely for the size. I imagine it might fit about half my CD collection on it. Probably not though...

Buy a Zen and put a 100gig HD in it. It's really easy.

quote: I reckon they will in time. Supply is an issue though. Wait six months and these will be $100 less. Once the regular 20G ipod hits about $220 in price the hordes will start buying them.

So which is it -- if Apple can't keep up with demand, why would they reduce the price? Hell, why did they recently reduce the price if they can't keep up with demand? You've just inadvertantly shown yourself to be full of ****.

Apple is not known for charging sensible amounts. Mark my words: Apple will discontinue the 20G iPod before lowering its price anymore, and replace it with a 20G Mini for about $350-$400, and a 40GB iPod for $300.

	28-10-2004 15:30									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Asher They don't even stock the Zen Touches right now, because they can't get ahold of them. In fact, no Future Shop in Canada has been able to obtain any yet.

Do you know that for a fact? It's possible that Future Shop doesn't stock the Zen Touch because there is limited demand for it.

The high demand for iPods creates an incentive for stores to order in large numbers of them. They may have a lot on stock, but they may also be selling a lot.

I know there is a shortage of mini iPods in Hong Kong. The price has gone up by about Cdn$60.

	28-10-2004 15:34									#33
	Increase Your PM Length

Apple seems to go down the old road of theirs, releasing a highly innovative and superior design, only to waste it away and ultimately loosing the grip of the market... Sad really...

	28-10-2004 17:36									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: So which is it -- if Apple can't keep up with demand, why would they reduce the price? Hell, why did they recently reduce the price if they can't keep up with demand? You've just inadvertantly shown yourself to be full of ****.

Such a bitter little boy. Your life really does go worse if Apple sells mp3 players.

They will reduce the price come next year for the simple reason that increasing the hard drive space is unlikely to bring more people to the platform.

Stores don't stock other players because nobody wants them. Even Dell isn't selling many players over the net and I doubt that they have supply problems - the real problem is that the Dell DJ is an ugly, useless piece of crap.

quote: I know there is a shortage of mini iPods in Hong Kong.

There's a shortage everywhere. And this is the player that whiners like Asher assured the world would "never sell".

	28-10-2004 19:27									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Such a bitter little boy. Your life really does go worse if Apple sells mp3 players. They will reduce the price come next year for the simple reason that increasing the hard drive space is unlikely to bring more people to the platform. Stores don't stock other players because nobody wants them.

Do you have the slightest clue how retail works?

Futureshop does stock other HD MP3 players. The Sony ones, the RCA ones, the Rio ones, etc. Creative is the #2 HD MP3 maker behind Apple.

If there isn't a huge demand for them (there still clearly is demand for them), they'd just stock LESS of them, not none of them.

They also stock the Zen Xtra still. Your argument that they don't sell Zen Touches because there's "no demand for any of the other players" just further cements you in the "hopeless fanboy" category.

quote: There's a shortage everywhere.

Nonsense. I've been into 2 Future Shops in the GTA, and one Best Buy in the last few weeks, and all of them had an abundance of iPod and iPod Mini boxes laying around.

Ditto for the Future Shop in Waterloo.

On the other hand, I've never found anyone who has a Zen Touch in stock...and when I asked the Future Shop mobile audio manager, he said they haven't been able to secure any shipments nationwide.

Which one smells more of a shortage to you?

	28-10-2004 20:07									#36
	Got spare money?

For what it's worth, Creative just today announced that sales are up 32% since last quarter.

	28-10-2004 20:45									#37
	Got spare money?

And Creative's profits were down 84%.

	28-10-2004 20:54									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

That's what they get for having high quality players for low prices. Still a profitable company, sales are up. It's all good.

	28-10-2004 21:39									#39
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Agathon What if you don't have a cell phone, or what if you hate cell phones?

But you have a $500 iPod?

Moreover, if you don't have a cell phone, why would you need a portable contact list?

	28-10-2004 22:00									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To dial people via a public phone

	28-10-2004 22:01									#41
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Do public phones still exist?

	28-10-2004 22:03									#42
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Asher That's what they get for having high quality players for low prices. Still a profitable company, sales are up. It's all good.

Ah, no.

Not from an investor's perspective.

A company that increases revenue by 30%, but has a 84% drop in sales is defintely a company with problems.

Creative has always has a lot of potential, but it is plagued by its management. Look at the Zen Touch. You think it is much better than iPod, and I'll grant you that it is competitive, yet Creative has failed to supply enough of the product to stock stores. That's a fatal error.

	28-10-2004 22:06									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Agathon What if you don't have a cell phone, or what if you hate cell phones? But you have a $500 iPod? Moreover, if you don't have a cell phone, why would you need a portable contact list?

A lot of time I'll call someone and ask "do you have so-and-so's number". They'll say yes, but it's on my mobile phone., They then have to hang up, look up the number, write it down and then call me back.

Having a contact list on another devide, be it iPod or a PDA, is handy.

	28-10-2004 22:08									#44
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Ah, no. Not from an investor's perspective.

This thread isn't about an investor's perspective, it's about a consumer's perspective.

Creative's sales are up, and they would likely be a lot more if they could meet the demand for their products. Unfortunately, they cannot right now. That's my point...

Agathon's position of gloating about Apple's marketshare of HD-based portable audio players versus Creative is ridiculous, given that Creative's demand far outstrips what they can supply already.

	28-10-2004 22:09									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai A lot of time I'll call someone and ask "do you have so-and-so's number". They'll say yes, but it's on my mobile phone., They then have to hang up, look up the number, write it down and then call me back.

That's a pretty shitty phone if you need to hang up to access the phonebook.

I'm betting this is user error more than anything else...every phone I've had in the past five years has permitted phonebook access while on a call.

	28-10-2004 22:10									#46
	Got spare money?

quote: Having a contact list on another devide, be it iPod or a PDA, is handy.

or just having a hands free, so they can move the phone away from their face while talking to you so they can browse...

	28-10-2004 22:12									#47
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

My iPaq kicks ass for this sort of thing anyway.

I just push a button and say "look up so-and-so", and it displays their information on a nice color screen.

	28-10-2004 22:24									#48
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Asher This thread isn't about an investor's perspective, it's about a consumer's perspective. Creative's sales are up, and they would likely be a lot more if they could meet the demand for their products. Unfortunately, they cannot right now. That's my point... Agathon's position of gloating about Apple's marketshare of HD-based portable audio players versus Creative is ridiculous, given that Creative's demand far outstrips what they can supply already.

Ah no.

It would be great if Creative and Apple sold their thingys for $10, but they would lose money and that would be stupid.

Oh, wait, Creative is selling products at a loss (Sales up, profits down).

As for the demand for Creative, the fact that demand is greater than supply means squat all. If 10,000 people want to buy the Zen Touch, but Creative is only producing 9,000 while Apple is selling 100,000 iPod, who is doing better? Obviously Apple.

	28-10-2004 22:28									#49
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Ah no. It would be great if Creative and Apple sold their thingys for $10, but they would lose money and that would be stupid. Oh, wait, Creative is selling products at a loss (Sales up, profits down).

If Creative was selling products at a loss, wouldn't they have no profit?

quote: As for the demand for Creative, the fact that demand is greater than supply means squat all. If 10,000 people want to buy the Zen Touch, but Creative is only producing 9,000 while Apple is selling 100,000 iPod, who is doing better? Obviously Apple.

I don't recall anyone saying Creative is doing better than Apple.

What was implied was that everyone wants an iPod, which is not true. The Zen Touch's marketshare would be MUCH better than it is, if Creative could produce enough to meet or exceed demand.

The fact that their profit margins have shrunk shows you that you're getting a better value buying their product...

	29-10-2004 03:45									#50
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Which one smells more of a shortage to you?

Apple is thumping Creative, it must be a conspiracy. While I have read constantly of the wailing and gnashing of teeth at people having to wait for their ipods, I don't see a similar buzz about Creative's stuff. Kind of obvious, because it sucks.

quote: What was implied was that everyone wants an iPod, which is not true.

No it isn't true. Almost everyone wants an ipod, apart from a few uncool saddo losers.

	29-10-2004 03:55									#51
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy HOW MUCH!??!?!?!?! My phone does most of that for circa £100 (plus is actually a phone too... though I got it free with contract)! You're better off buying said phone, or a digital camera, and then a Sony HD Walkman, and you'll have change from $500! What a ridiculous idea .

Yeah, your phone has got 60GB of storage?

	29-10-2004 03:56									#52
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: No it isn't true. Almost everyone wants an ipod, apart from a few uncool saddo losers.

actually, i don't want an ipod, because now that everybody has one, they're just... passe.

what's worse, their software has issues (the sync that vanishes entire music libraries... itunes windows being far too heavy, with an interface which i find less than good...)... making them not just passe, but the windows of the hd music player world.

	29-10-2004 03:58									#53
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Asher This thread isn't about an investor's perspective, it's about a consumer's perspective. Creative's sales are up, and they would likely be a lot more if they could meet the demand for their products. Unfortunately, they cannot right now. That's my point... Agathon's position of gloating about Apple's marketshare of HD-based portable audio players versus Creative is ridiculous, given that Creative's demand far outstrips what they can supply already.

Can't you read? Apple is in the same situation. According to you, even though Apple currently has a 92% market share, Creative would gobble it up if both were producing more?

	29-10-2004 04:13									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Yeah, your phone has got 60GB of storage?

60 GB for $500 though is too much. The old Creative had 60 GB for much cheaper. In the future, I think most people are looking for players which are $300-$400.

	29-10-2004 05:59									#55
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Agathon Apple is thumping Creative, it must be a conspiracy.

The only person who said anything about a conspiracy was you in your scramble to set up strawmen to avoid the logic...

quote: While I have read constantly of the wailing and gnashing of teeth at people having to wait for their ipods, I don't see a similar buzz about Creative's stuff.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and attribute this to a few reasons:
1) The people you hang out with tend to be liberal artsy Mac type people without a clue in the world
2) The Zen Touch doesn't have NEARLY the amount of exposure that Apple has had, I bet you the vast majority of people clamouring for an iPod couldn't even tell you what the "Zen Touch" is

What kind of idiots have to wait for their iPods? All of the major US stores I've checked online have them in stock, all of the major Canadian stores have them in stock...are they waiting because they were stupid and ordered direct from Apple?

quote: Kind of obvious, because it sucks.

Oh yes, absolute garbage. Better sound quality, far longer battery life, doesn't lock you into iTMS, lower price. That "sucks".

quote: No it isn't true. Almost everyone wants an ipod, apart from a few uncool saddo losers.

Or people with the intelligence and exposure to know there are better players out there for cheaper.

Just because it's mainstream doesn't mean it's better. MP3 is by far the largest format in terms of marketshare, and it sucks ass. WMA and AAC are both way better, and have smaller marketshares. By your definition, this is because they "suck".

And I'm sure you'll say AAC is good and WMA sucks, for obvious reasons.

I'm also going to extend your logic, and note because almost everyone wants a PC (to the tune of 98%), that means that the computer with 2% (that'd be Apple, incase you're dense) "sucks".

	29-10-2004 06:02									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Can't you read? Apple is in the same situation. According to you, even though Apple currently has a 92% market share, Creative would gobble it up if both were producing more?

I'm saying if Creative could produce enough to actually supply them to all the stores that the iPod is in, the marketshare would be MUCH smaller.

Sensible parents would look at the two and make the reasonable choice, intelligent people would as well.

Right now the iPod is the only reasonably designed HD player in all the stores I've been to, the RCA, Sony, etc. are all terrible. The Zen Touch is a very well designed player, and simply isn't in those stores for comparison.

The iPod has all of the press, because it's Apple behind it. Apple is VERY good at manipulating the media, and hence the stupid, stupid people who follow trends blindly.

It doesn't mean the product is the best, and nor does indicating their marketshare is so high say anything. Especially when their most technically competent competitor has far larger supply problems, and can't keep up with demand.

And I would disagree that Apple's in the same boat. I see NO evidence of a shortage of iPod 4Gs anywhere -- they are absolutely abundant. That's why Apple had to cut the price recently. They're selling well, but not as much as they were producing them. What other reason would they have to lower the price?

	29-10-2004 06:52									#57
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Asher The Zen Touch is a very well designed player, and simply isn't in those stores for comparison.

It's not well designed. It's available in stores here in Hong Kong. People aren't buying it.

	29-10-2004 06:54									#58
	Put an end to popups!

And look how this online retailer is selling the Zen Touch:

There is currently a shortage of iPods and iPod minis in the UK. We can therefore highly recommend the new Creative Zen Touch 20GB - digital music player with an amazing 24 hours battery life that holds 10,000 songs or other digital files such as photos, presentations or business data (that's 10 times as many as the iPod mini), but all for the same price!
http://www.ukoffer.com/ipod-mini.php

	29-10-2004 07:00									#59
	Suffering from ads?

quote: The only person who said anything about a conspiracy was you in your scramble to set up strawmen to avoid the logic...

Logic... from you..?

	29-10-2004 08:50									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: because almost everyone wants a PC (to the tune of 98%), that means that the computer with 2% (that'd be Apple, incase you're dense) "sucks".